Sins of Child Sexual Abuse and the Gays

[Dreamer]

I agree with much of what you say about morals/ethics and the best way to treat our neighbors.  But when it comes to the bible and Jesus you lose me.  why?  Because both of those are totally human constructs.  There is no proof that any god exists and Jesus is simply a fiction.  So, you can make both of those say what you want them to say--facts not needed.  That would be like me building a defense of how I live based upon the sayings of Bugs Bunny--I can make him say whatever I need him to say. 

That is the great freedom and great frustration of following God. If we're not vigilant and careful, we'll only be following ourselves behind the red curtain.

There are ways to interpret the Bible, referenced multiple times throughout. It's a two prism test, loving God and loving your neighbors. Anything that is not in line with that, cannot be a Christian action. Yet, we do all sin and fail in this. But we can grow, accept responsible, root out our weaknesses and wrong thinking--and Jesus also shared that there is more rejoicing over a sinner who changes than for the man who always makes right choices.

[Hydra009]

Yes, a great many do that. But that's the sinful path lined with misdeeds against our fellow humans. That is, the action is not Christian.

This No True Scotsman stuff is wearing thin and is an indication that one values some sort of identity so much that one literally do no wrong within it.  It's an obvious defense mechanism, and walking around the world with blinders on is no way to go through life.

The simple fact is that Christians do bad things, Muslims do bad things, atheists do bad things, etc.  In any large group, there are bound to be sorts of problems.  And not just that, but in large communities and especially in small, insular communities, this stuff often gets swept under the rug or disturbingly, guilt is transferred from the perpetrator to the victim for "doing harm to the organization".

The obvious solution is to call out such behavior and see to it that perpetrators are caught and punished.  Crimes are deterred not by severity of punishment, but by the certainty of being caught, and perpetrators are more likely to be caught if people do not turn a blind eye to such behavior and report the crime asap rather than sitting on it or dismissing the accusation out of hand.  This No True Scotsman stuff plays into the perpetrator's hands - the assumption that the group is too pious and pure for any of its members to engage in that sort of criminal behavior is a cloak that criminals use to cast off initial suspicion.

[Mike Cl]

That is the great freedom and great frustration of following God. If we're not vigilant and careful, we'll only be following ourselves behind the red curtain.

There are ways to interpret the Bible, referenced multiple times throughout. It's a two prism test, loving God and loving your neighbors. Anything that is not in line with that, cannot be a Christian action. Yet, we do all sin and fail in this. But we can grow, accept responsible, root out our weaknesses and wrong thinking--and Jesus also shared that there is more rejoicing over a sinner who changes than for the man who always makes right choices.

You have a way of dodging the point.  I just told you that both god and jesus are fictions.  Yet you ignore that and give me the drivel above.  Whatever changes you made in your life was you and nothing else.  I have made similar changes in my life and will probably make more, yet neither god nor jesus will figure into those changes.  Only one thing can make you change you mind or actions--only one--and that is you.  You don't need god, you don't need jesus--but you do need a mind capable of critical thinking and the christian mind is not capable of critical thinking.

[Blackleaf]

The Bible is contextual; I don't know why you didn't read the nearby verses, but here you go...

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord's people."

Men: Sleep with prostitutes. Get STDs.

"Well, now we HAVE to kill all the women in this city! Except the virgins. It would be a shame to waste them. Let's take them as plunder."

Totally justified. Umm... But weren't there other women who weren't virgins, but also weren't sleeping with Israelites? Like, umm... The ones married to their own men? Why were they killed? Could it be because they weren't as desirable, maybe?

[M]

If the CEO of Tesco was guilty of covering up child abuse, that person would be serving a custodial sentence and not be driven around in a bullet proof car.

We can't keep saying that shit rolls downhill. It starts at the top and those at the top normally take responsibility and pay the price for their organizations shortcomings... Why doesn't that EVER apply to religious organisations?

Bastards.

[M]

There's a special pass for religious organisations all the time everywhere.

We can without the fear of being called out, tell children to thank Jesus for feeding them.
We can without the fear of being called out, thank Allah for clean water.
We can without fear hold candlelit vigils for the victims of A B and C as long as there's a connection to a church or a God.

Why can't we without fear call out bullshit?
Why is there always someone in the background threatening us?
 

Religion in a nutshell. Threatening fearful people into submission since the day dot and happy to do so.
 

[Dreamer]

This No True Scotsman stuff is wearing thin and is an indication that one values some sort of identity so much that one literally do no wrong within it.  It's an obvious defense mechanism, and walking around the world with blinders on is no way to go through life.

The simple fact is that Christians do bad things, Muslims do bad things, atheists do bad things, etc.  In any large group, there are bound to be sorts of problems.  And not just that, but in large communities and especially in small, insular communities, this stuff often gets swept under the rug or disturbingly, guilt is transferred from the perpetrator to the victim for "doing harm to the organization".

The obvious solution is to call out such behavior and see to it that perpetrators are caught and punished.  Crimes are deterred not by severity of punishment, but by the certainty of being caught, and perpetrators are more likely to be caught if people do not turn a blind eye to such behavior and report the crime asap rather than sitting on it or dismissing the accusation out of hand.  This No True Scotsman stuff plays into the perpetrator's hands - the assumption that the group is too pious and pure for any of its members to engage in that sort of criminal behavior is a cloak that criminals use to cast off initial suspicion.

I've referenced this sentiment, when I mentioned how Christianity can so easily be used as a shorthand for 'good person.'

I am aware of the dangers of this fallacious thinking, and that is why I draw the point to the action itself not being in line with Christ. (No True Scotsman doesn't apply, as I am making no call on the identity of the person. Rather that they are failing to act in accordance with being a 'Little Jesus.')

Following Christ calls for much more than we can do-of course, Christians sin! Evil thrives in the darkness, and you are very right in pointing out the solution of shining the light on this problem.

When someone claims they've changed yet cannot admit to any of their past misdeeds, they have blanketed the truth in their minds.

I have spent far more time considering this crime and the criminal than I should. I struggle with it and am greatly troubled at the turbulence I've faced within myself.

Childhood trauma affects the brain in ways that trauma in adulthood does not. I am extremely resilient, yet my needs to withdraw and recooperate, my panic attacks, my shifting memory--those weaknesses I face again and again. Tbh, my experiences of Christianity growing up really broke me.. I was taught for years that my virginity was my most sacred gift, and what a treasured thing to give to my future husband. To be pure, set apart. I heard this for years before I learned what it meant. And as I learned its meaning, it dawned on me that I didn't have it. I was angry and ashamed. I was trapped for years in victimhood. I finally began crawling out of that pit when I left all faith and belief in God behind and renounced Christianity. I made more progress later as I opened myself back to my spirituality.

These things aren't hypothetical to me. I was not abused by the ministry/clergy, but Christianity was used and abused repeatedly to justify evil.

I cannot count the messages I heard about virginity, growing up in the church. But a message against sexual abuse? The pastor telling the congregation that it's a sin to hit your wife and children? Never. Not even once. Not once in person, on tv, in a magazine, online.....

That's messed up, especially when there's butts in pews pretending that they're great because they're not gay, and they managed to drag themselves from a drunken stupor to come in that Sunday after abusing your children that same morning... The hypocrisy has been pointed out by outsiders for years, yet rarely from within.

[Dreamer]

They'd have to actually read the Bible to use that justification.

This is literally verbatim what I thought when I read aitm's post...


If the Bible were literal, I'd be very upset about this...

So, the Israelites are seduced by women to sleep with them. These women then want the Israelites to worship their gods, which they do. Israelites suffer a plague from the women; they're supposed to kill all the men and a number of the women. But, they're only supposed to kill the women who weren't virgins, because they seduced the Israelites and led them to false worship.

This is all sorts of fucked up, if it's literal. From the viewpoint of a parable, allegory, or similar story, it can be applied to life today (that application part is pretty much the whole point in having and reading a Bible...).


When we commit sexual sins and spiritual sins, we have to root it out and eliminate it fully within ourselves. We can't try to save parts that are tainted because we like them, nor is it correct to destroy the blameless parts (i.e., the virgins who were saved).


This is an interpretation that applies today, that satisfies how we are to interpret Scripture. It is not THE interpretation or ultimate meaning, as Christ ministers to us all according to our measures of faith.

[Dreamer]

There's a special pass for religious organisations all the time everywhere.

(...)

Why can't we without fear call out bullshit?
Why is there always someone in the background threatening us?
 

Religion in a nutshell. Threatening fearful people into submission since the day dot and happy to do so.
 

Christ called us into relationship, out of that fear.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It would be nice if doing the right thing were accompanied by the chiming of bells or an uplifting soundtrack or something to let us know we're on the right path. In this world, the right path can be fraught with insults and even death threats...

[Dreamer]

Look, dreamer, i imagine you are a good guy, all in all. (Relatively speaking, I don't think i am a good person, for starters. But that is a whole different conversation, and not a particularly interesting one at that.) And i can appreciate you preaching for love and understanding and opposing systemic child rape in religious orders. I can.

But i can't help but think that without validation of the concept of 'sin', and without the institution of religion, less of these transgressions in the whole would occur. Especially the gaybashing.
See, i don't think you are appaled of gaybashing and child rape because you are a christian. No more than i think another christian hates gays or thinks it is excusable to protect the church by hiding proof of child rape, because They are christian.
I believe christianity is such a broad umbrella-term that you can pick and choose to fit it to your needs. And honestly, if the bible or that umbrella term is your 'reason' to judge things as sins or as wrong, i don't see the average member of the westboro baptist church being less or more validated in their reasoning for their message of hate than you in your message of love.
Sorry.

The Westboro Baptist Church choose to interpret Scripture to support their own moral decisions, rather than seeking to align themselves with Christ. That is, their own actions run counter to the Bible. While it's not literal and there are multiple interpretations of the Bible, you can identify some viewpoints as incongruous with the Bible and therefore invalid. The Westboro Baptist Church has as much regard for following Biblical principal as a Satanist.

In regards to what kind of person I am, I'm better than some and worse than others. I actively work at doing the right (loving) thing, rooting out my own darkness so the Light destroys it.

But, when it comes to gay people... The stance of gays being abominations was hammered in often, and I truly believed it. Church teaching dictated my words and deeds. While I didn't call people names or physically hurt anyone, I did say hurtful things like how they're living in sin, abominations, etc. I can recognize that as sinful now, but I was convinced that it was correct at the time. Many Christians are sincere, only some use Christianity as a veil. And it's those sincere people that are changeable and can grow to see their own sin and correct it.

I don't know anyone who speaks up in support of child abuse. Yet, I also don't know anyone who speaks up against it. And we need people to do that, especially in places where we know that cancer grows in darkness (as in the case with churches and child sexual abuse..).

[aitm]

The key phrase here Dreamer, is "they chose to interpret", just like you are doing. You suggest there are passages in the babble that mean exactly that...but then they are those which you think need your interpretation to make them more palatable for you. Therein lies the big hookery. You are already a heretic for trying to "disclaim" what the babble actually says in favor of something less offensive. You live in your own made up world...but you go girl.....dream on.

[Dreamer]

I agree with stephen fry that we should call it child rape. Sexual abuse somehow seems like downplaying the horrid crime that it is.

There is a point there.. I have several reasons that I call it child sexual abuse....

Csa covers more violations without needing to point out disturbing distinctions. But mostly, it's because of what comes up in me. It's much bigger to call it rape, even when that is clearly what it is. Many rape victims have difficulty with the terms and will acknowledge sexual abuse long before acknowledging that it was rape. Sometimes that word can feel like another violation, and even though it's one word versus three, it is somehow much easier to use the longer term...

[Dreamer]

The key phrase here Dreamer, is "they chose to interpret", just like you are doing. You suggest there are passages in the babble that mean exactly that...but then they are those which you think need your interpretation to make them more palatable for you. Therein lies the big hookery. You are already a heretic for trying to "disclaim" what the babble actually says in favor of something less offensive. You live in your own made up world...but you go girl.....dream on.

I think it's all not literal. I'm just leaving the space for the possibility that something could be; I just really doubt it based on the rest of the Bible. Besides, if it were all literal, it would apply to the dead, not me...

I am a heretic. Just like Jesus.

[Shiranu]

You are already a heretic for trying to "disclaim" what the babble actually says in favor of something less offensive.

Why would an atheist care?

As for what the Bible says, I don't really find "Feed the poor, house the homeless, give to the needy, embrace the refugee, love thy neighbor." to be all that offensive - I'm a bit concerned if anyone does find it so, though our GOP certainly makes a great argument that they would find it so.

[aitm]

I think it's all not literal. I'm just leaving the space for the possibility that something could be; I just really doubt it based on the rest of the Bible. Besides, if it were all literal, it would apply to the dead, not me...

I am a heretic. Just like Jesus.

Ah, In the OP you take great pains to identify yourself as a Christian, and now you admit....meh, I follow some of it, the rest is pretty wishy washy...just like jesus was going to say....someday.