Howdy, ya'all

[M]

And yet my own experience is paramount, just as yours is to you. Assumptions must be tested and explored.

Yeah so how were your assumptions tested and explored? What were the findings? Can you show me the evidence of the findings?
I'm guessing not.

It was more than just the healing. It was the surety that it was coming, despite the doctor trying to curtail expectations.

It went better than the doctor anticipated therefore God?

The cool thing is, it doesn't lessen what happened, regardless of how anyone else chooses to interpret it.

For you maybe. To me it just sounds like you got lucky. Nothing remarkable about it at all.

It affects things the same as if someone believes that things fall to the ground due to invisible fairies rather than due to gravity. Gravity did its thing and will continue to do so, quite independent from anyone's understanding. God is likewise.

No God isn't likewise, I think that you're bright enough to know how the scientific method works..

Anyone can do what you're doing here.

"Ohhh it was a good job that I didn't take the train that day, someone was watching over me."

Not even slightly impressive.

[Mike Cl]

One informs and details the other; they are not in contradiction.

The suffering in the world is due to sin. Sin is mistakes, anything that separates us from love. Sin is knowing what the right thing to do is, but not doing it. Free will is wonderful, but lots of risks as well.

Well, I do see it as a contradiction and a very, very important one.  In Gen 1, both male and female were created together, at the same time, and that was pronounced as good.  In Gen 2, man was created first and became the right hand man for god.  Woman came as an after thought, for god did not foresee (odd for a god) man would become lonely.  So, woman was made from man, and in essence, became man's servant.  Now the big three still considers that to be what is commanded by god--woman is from man and is meant to serve him. Patriarchy is a huge problem in almost all modern societies. 

As for 'sin', that is one of those catch-all words that mean what the speaker says it means.  Can you give me some examples of what would be a sin?  I think 'sin' is a useless word for it can mean some many things--but one example for me would be the practice of patriarchy; that has caused tremendous damage to a large portion of most societies.   

[Dreamer]

A survey isn't the same as anecdotal evidence. A researcher forms sample sizes of a large enough size to justify representing the population, and they do it in a way to limit as many extraneous factors as possible. Disconnected, anecdotal accounts are a very biased way to approach a subject. In cases like yours, for example, all of the stories are coming from the survivors who were healed, not the people who died from their afflictions or survived but continued to live with severe symptoms. Those people are unable or uncompelled to tell their stories, hence why the anecdotal evidence given is not informative.

I don't offer it as qualitative proof; it is my evidence, my experience. Which is indeed irrefutable.

There's a plethora of scientific papers detailing anecdotes, and those form the basis for not only further study but also are used to support conclusions.

And what you described about surveys is what ideally happens; surveys are often biased and unrepresentative.

It takes funding for research. For most spiritual communities, belief in God is a matter of faith, not science. Who else would invest money?

And, it requires reproducible conditions.

So, someone would need to first contract Graves Disease. Okay, not too hard there; it's not rare. Then, they would need to have a leading from God that they're going to be healed and accept that. Not so easy.

I've never had a message from God like that; a knowing and peace filled me, and I wasn't worried. If I could choose, I would be healed from complex PTSD. The treatment for Graves is much more straightforward and doesn't have nearly as big of an emotional/mental impact. But, I didn't get that.

Obviously, God doesn't heal everyone or everything, so the fact that not everyone is healed does not contradict that I was healed by God.

There's no claim that God heals everyone here on Earth. Or if you believe, or have enough faith, that God will heal your body. If that were my claim, then even one anecdote would be enough to refute it.

[Blackleaf]

I am a former Christian. I was very devout, and for a period of...maybe five years? I felt very close to God. Often felt certain that God was telling one thing or another, but that feeling was extremely unreliable. It's one of the reasons I stopped believing. I wasn't going to stick my neck out just for God to fail to follow through. And if my own thoughts couldn't be discerned from God's, then it's basically the toss of a coin. Why even bother?

In my experience, it's very easy to trigger a spiritual experience in someone who is receptive to it. Churches, consciously or otherwise, have been structured to make it as easy as possible. They use emotionally provocative music to influence their audience. That combined with being surrounded by others with similar beliefs, it's a powerful thing. Basically a group delusion. Just look at footage of Pentecostals "speaking tongues" and being, "slain by the Spirit." Some are faking, I'm sure, but some are being genuine.

[Dreamer]

Yeah so how were your assumptions tested and explored? What were the findings? Can you show me the evidence of the findings?
I'm guessing not.

It went better than the doctor anticipated therefore God?

For you maybe. To me it just sounds like you got lucky. Nothing remarkable about it at all.

No God isn't likewise, I think that you're bright enough to know how the scientific method works..

Anyone can do what you're doing here.

"Ohhh it was a good job that I didn't take the train that day, someone was watching over me."

Not even slightly impressive.

Sorry that my experience isn't dramatic enough for you 😂

God let me know that I would be healed. I was; therefore, God. It is not the same as layering meaning over past events; it preceded and predicted the outcome.

I don't need to go into detail about my examinations and conclusions beyond the substantial amount I already have.. I am unable to give myself Graves again nor have God let me know that healing was coming.

[M]

Sorry that my experience isn't dramatic enough for you 😂

God let me know that I would be healed. I was; therefore, God. It is not the same as layering meaning over past events; it preceded and predicted the outcome.

I don't need to go into detail about my examinations and conclusions beyond the substantial amount I already have.. I am unable to give myself Graves again nor have God let me know that healing was coming.

H

[Dreamer]

I am a former Christian. I was very devout, and for a period of...maybe five years? I felt very close to God. Often felt certain that God was telling one thing or another, but that feeling was extremely unreliable. It's one of the reasons I stopped believing. I wasn't going to stick my neck out just for God to fail to follow through. And if my own thoughts couldn't be discerned from God's, then it's basically the toss of a coin. Why even bother?

In my experience, it's very easy to trigger a spiritual experience in someone who is receptive to it. Churches, consciously or otherwise, have been structured to make it as easy as possible. They use emotionally provocative music to influence their audience. That combined with being surrounded by others with similar beliefs, it's a powerful thing. Basically a group delusion. Just look at footage of Pentecostals "speaking tongues" and being, "slain by the Spirit." Some are faking, I'm sure, but some are being genuine.

I see it similar to a muscle. The more you practice, the stronger and more reliable it becomes. When you first begin playing a sport, you'll win every now and then; that condition doesn't persist with training. That is to say, there's a point in following God, even when we get it wrong.

For me, guilt and anxiety can often color what I think God is wanting me to do. I try to temper that in a variety of ways: reading the Bible and other sacred texts, waiting worship, emotional exploration to see if it's just my own anxieties, prayer, even mantras to address feelings of guilt and anxiety. And to remind me that I am a child of God and under God's protection and authority, I sometimes wear a hat or scarf or snood like women used to do a long time ago (and some still do).

I also make sure that it passes through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as myself as a standard litmus test. Jesus refers to these two tenants multiple times, as fulfilling the Law and Prophets, as the greatest commandment, and the secret to eternal life.

A lot of churches are as you described. I remember as a preteen attending a revival at a very large, very loud church. Lots of whooping and yelling, dancing, "tongues"... The pastor put his hand on my forehead and screamed a prayer in combination English and "prayer language" over me. His hand shook, and he kept pushing on my head. I was surrounded by people, many touching me. My neck was hurting, and I hate loud noises, so I was ready for him to move on. Then the pastor pushed pretty hard, and I remember hands pulling me down. I didn't get that after he prayed for someone, the expectation was that they would pass out or lose control of their bodies in response. When I didn't, he was trying to encourage me to fall back. And apparently had arranged with the deacons to just take down anyone who didn't follow the stage directions. I cried for a while on that floor, and I'm sure people thought I was having some divine experience or something. I was scared and overstimulated, and to be honest, I can still feel that sense of violation creeping up in me. Those types of churches still make me leery...

But, I love the Friends. Many Meetings (Quaker church) don't use music at all, nor have prepared messages. We often refer to the Light, and there are people who only use that language rather than God because.. they're agnostics or atheists lol

We believe that God dwells within, and God can speak to all of us, to our condition. We can cultivate that inner Light, and that work is easiest in community.

My Meeting does have a pastor, but we believe that everyone can be a minister. We have a time of silence, and sometimes people share messages. It's refreshing to hear doubts and struggles amid words of blessings, proverbs, etc. It's like the opposite of that uncomfortable revival experience.

[Unbeliever]

Dreamer, is God omniscient?

And is God free?

[Dreamer]

How did God let you know? In a dream?
Email?
WhatsApp?

You said that you had evidence that God healed you..  I'm not seeing any.

BTW instead of taking what you've said at face value, I've had a look at NHS England's website. What makes you think that you're healed? You could be in the same position that you were in a couple of years from now..

Looking back at your posts, you know that too.

Lol I'm not going to post my medical documents, sorry/not sorry.


I already answered your first questions.

I say healed because I don't have the antibodies (antigens?) of what was attacking my thyroid (TSH 3?) I'm not positive because I've been in remission for many years now. With Graves, it's an autoimmune disease where your body attacks your thyroid, and there's particular evidence that your hyperthyroidism is caused by Graves. Not only did my hyperthyroidism go away, but there's been no evidence of Graves for years, since remission.

This is not typical, as many have their thyroidism resolve as far as normal thyroid production, yet continue to have Graves antibodies. They are effectively in remission. I claim my healing due to both lack of hyperthyroid conditions in my blood as well as the fact that there is no lingering evidence of Graves in my body according to my yearly labs.

There's a possibility that I could get Graves again; if I did, would this 8-9 year span of healing cease to be? Your comments seem to imply that absurdity.

[Dreamer]

Dreamer, is God omniscient?

And is God free?

That's my understanding.

[Mike Cl]

There's no claim that God heals everyone here on Earth. Or if you believe, or have enough faith, that God will heal your body. If that were my claim, then even one anecdote would be enough to refute it.

My question would be why would anybody need to be healed??  If god is perfect, then healing would not ever be needed.  the universe, including Earth and its life forms would be perfect.  If so, then what would need to be healed?  Or god the perfect built in destruction and imperfections; if so, why?  That does not reflect well on any perfect god.  Is your god perfect?

[M]

Lol I'm not going to post my medical documents, sorry/not sorry.


I already answered your first questions.

I say healed because I don't have the antibodies (antigens?) of what was attacking my thyroid (TSH 3?) I'm not positive because I've been in remission for many years now. With Graves, it's an autoimmune disease where your body attacks your thyroid, and there's particular evidence that your hyperthyroidism is caused by Graves. Not only did my hyperthyroidism go away, but there's been no evidence of Graves for years, since remission.

This is not typical, as many have their thyroidism resolve as far as normal thyroid production, yet continue to have Graves antibodies. They are effectively in remission. I claim my healing due to both lack of hyperthyroid conditions in my blood as well as the fact that there is no lingering evidence of Graves in my body according to my yearly labs.

There's a possibility that I could get Graves again; if I did, would this 8-9 year span of healing cease to be? Your comments seem to imply that absurdity.

O

[Unbeliever]

That's my understanding.

But God cannot be both omniscient and free.

If God is omniscient then he's always known everything he would ever do, and everything he would not ever do. So he cannot be free to not do anything he's always known he would do, and he cannot be free to do anything he's always known he would not ever do.

So God is either not omniscient or God is not free. Which do you believe is the case?

[M]

Ju

[M]

But God cannot be both omniscient and free.

If God is omniscient then he's always known everything he would ever do, and everything he would not ever do. So he cannot be free to not do anything he's always known he would do, and he cannot be free to do anything he's always known he would not ever do.

So God is either not omniscient or God is not free. Which do you believe is the case?

O