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God and his mysterious ways

Started by ManUfan, November 03, 2022, 05:28:36 PM

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ManUfan

Quote from: Shiranu on November 10, 2022, 07:05:53 PMIf that doesn't matter to the theist, I don't see why it should matter to the atheist.

Again, I find it odd that atheists often are more dogmatic about the Bible having to be taken as the fundamental truth more than any church I have been involved with in the past, and certainly more-so than anyone in public who has ever expressed their Christianity to me (unless you want to count the 2-3 door-to-door converters who got a few words in despite me telling them i'm not interested).

But wait.. Objective morality!!
Where does your morality come from without the Bible. The set of rules laid out by the creator of everything for us all to follow.

Where would we be without those rules?

Without the Bible and the teachings of Christ we'd be destroying the planet, waging war, and contributing to the end of our existence.

Thank god for Jesus Christ.


Mike Cl

Quote from: Shiranu on November 10, 2022, 07:10:33 PMThe Essenes in particular, whom Jesus quite likely belong to, were very obsessed with the idea that the body and the soul were two utterly separate entities - and that the soul was trapped within a human body looking to be saved from this objectively shitty world.

You seem to believe Jesus was a real live, actual person.  I don't see any independent proof that that is true.  From my research, Jesus is a fiction, created by those who wrote and arraigned the bible.  Since Jesus is fictional, he can be made to say or do anything.  So he can be made to be a member of the Esseses--or the wandering Cynics.  The Gospel of Thomas suggests that he was one of the Cynics. 

There has been no proof that the 'soul' exists.  But if it does according to the christians, then it was created by their perfect god.  How can that be anything other than perfect??  So why complain about it???
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

ManUfan

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 12, 2022, 06:19:34 PMThere has been no proof that the 'soul' exists.  But if it does according to the christians, then it was created by their perfect god.  How can that be anything other than perfect??  So why complain about it???

Cancer of the soul never killed anyone, maybe god gave our souls a pass?

Shiranu

#33
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 10, 2022, 09:49:13 PMBy literally, I mean 'literally'--not specifically 'teachings'.  Would you consider this to be a teaching or command? "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,". Seems rather barbaric to me.

A command; and it does indeed sound barbaric, sounds like good cause to throw it out.

QuoteThere are something like 613 commands within the OT. Many are basically a handbook for living in the desert 2000/3000 years ago. Not many apply to today's world.

So if you don't need it - don't follow it.

I will argue that there is some philosophical use to some though - a lot of them have to do with cleanliness and moral purity (both of which the world arguably could use a lot more of right now), even if they are basic physical acts. These small acts are like exercise that can stimulate moral parts of a person's mind - like telling yourself positive affirmations or getting into a workout routine have greater results than just "me happier" or "muscle bigger".

QuoteBut what is a 'baby' (which I gather is at least kernel of truth)??  Who gets to decide?  It is simply a matter of opinion.  If you simply want to cherry pick the verses, then I will agree that some of the verses give good advice and some of them read as poetry.  But try to get a consensus of which is which. And Rabbis have been at it for thousands of years. 

No one decides the truth, no more than anyone decides calculus; it simply is.

The works that you feel take you closer to the truth - be it through your own intuition or through rational observations - take them.
The works that you feel don't bring you closer to the truth - be it material or philosophically - discard them.

The truth doesn't require consensus; those who would know it wouldn't care.

You call it "cherry picking", I call it getting rid of the barbaric, idiotic, and outright outlandish bits so that I can appreciate that which has amazing value even thousands of years after it was written.

QuoteWithout the torah, there would be more peace in this world.  The big 3 (Jewish, christian and muslim) have brought more destruction than peace to this world--in my opinion.  the torah led to the creation of the scriptures of the other two culprits.  They are destructive in my opinion.  But they are equal in that all of them can be cherry picked to prove anything.  Simply look at this country now--white christian nationalism--what the fuck is that if not destructive.  And they have cherry picked both the old and new testments of 'prove' they are right. 

You don't think other books would have taken their place? Other ideologies?

Humanity had "discovered" secularism as a normal way of being, of a state of expressing your self to the world without being judged for it, and what happened within a few years? Nationalism springs to life; replace religion with the state, or with your race!

Social Darwinism replaced the laws of the Bible; those antiquated old things had no place in an industrial world! Kids working factories? Poppy cock, a good English lad can take that smog no problem, the doctor told me so himself! Good lungs e' said, comes from our greater blood or somethin!

Power cannot exist in a vacuum, suspended in space - as long as it exists, hands will constantly be grasping, clawing, tearing at that baton till their fingers bleed... and this will only drive them into a deeper frenzy to control it.

That power doesn't go away if we *poofed* every last trace of religion off the face of the Earth right now, bleached people's brains of it ever existing - someone's hands would grab it in a millisecond, and things stay exactly the same.

The utopia yall envision doesn't exist; this is a material universe, and it sucks ass. We certainly need to try and get everyone to actually use their heads, but let's be honest... you can only be so optimistic about that ever happening without being certifiably just as crazy as a Catholic nun.

QuoteYes, preserving a people's history in a written text is of value.  But I do not regard the OT as that.  If it were not produced as a means of controlling the population, it has certainly been used as such.  And a history should be labeled as such, not the Word of God and used as a hammer of submission.  And a history should be factual not mainly fiction. 

"History should be subject to my stamp of approval, and if it does not fit my stamp of approval than any value it could ever have is therefor null and void, en perpetuity, until the last black hole has collapsed upon itself and the universe enters the True Abyss."
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Mike Cl

Shiranu, you said this in your last post: "History should be subject to my stamp of approval, and if it does not fit my stamp of approval than any value it could ever have is therefor null and void, en perpetuity, until the last black hole has collapsed upon itself and the universe enters the True Abyss."

I do not remember saying anything like this.  But I have the feeling this is what you are leaning towards.  You really, really, really like the OT and all of it's numerous renditions.  I too, find it interesting and a good set of documents to give some serious study of.  I have not studied it anywhere near as much as you have, but what I have learned is that it is a mix of some history, some actual places and people, but for the most part it is fiction.  I find some of it poetic and some of it has philosophical value.  But it is hard to sometimes untangle the fact from fiction and most of what I have found is fictional.  It's god is barbaric beyond belief; few of his commands are worth considering; some are almost by mistake--if one shoots a 100 pellets toward a target, a few are bound to it.  I do not venerate it in any way, shape or form. 

I find all religions that have a rigid hierarchy to be destructive.  All of those that willingly follow them are also dangerous.  But not all who are 'religious' are dangerous and some are actually helpful.  An example for me is Kahlil Gibran and his The Prophet--I have read and deeply considered his messages for most of my life.  Not all religions nor all parts of religions are harmful.  But I see the overall effect of religion to be destructive.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Shiranu

QuoteBut it is hard to sometimes untangle the fact from fiction and most of what I have found is fictional. 

I know - that's the problem; I realise it's fiction too. Most people do, except for the really nutty nutters. But that's okay; a good message is allowed to exist within a "fantasy" world - like Disney for desert-dwelling Jews.

Quotesome are almost by mistake--if one shoots a 100 pellets toward a target, a few are bound to it. 

Seriously, at the very least look at the plot summaries (don't even have to read the books themselves) of the Books of Isaiah of Amos; two of my favorites in the Bible. The Old Testament is so much more than Mose's Pentateuch.
 
"Isaiah" - one of the three authors of the books, believed to be the original prophet, but... cries out as he looks at the injustice that his own people do to one another.

Ah! Those who enact unjust statutes,
 who write oppressive decrees,
 Depriving the needy of judgment,
 robbing my people's poor of justice,
 Making widows their plunder,
 and orphans their prey! (10:1-2).


 
Amos, a simple shepherd looking at his nation and crying out condemnations of the greed, corruption, and just degeneracy that society, has this to say of our current day Christians...

Quote"Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? That day will be darkness, not light." Amos - 5:18

I think a couple of our Bible-thumping Congressmen, Senators and even Supreme Justices might want to actually take a second look at some of the stuff their Bible says.

But of course, that Christianity has literally nothing to do with the Bible - I think we both can agree on that, right? It's just a means of control... and when the Good Word fails, ol' reliable racism and nationalism kicks to overdrive.

Evil is evil; it really is as childishly simple as that. It doesn't have borders, it doesn't have genes, it doesn't have holy sects... it just exists. We can attempt to define it, but it's a natural force - it doesn't care one way or another, it simply is.

QuoteI find all religions that have a rigid hierarchy to be destructive.  All of those that willingly follow them are also dangerous.  But not all who are 'religious' are dangerous and some are actually helpful.  An example for me is Kahlil Gibran and his The Prophet--I have read and deeply considered his messages for most of my life.  Not all religions nor all parts of religions are harmful.  But I see the overall effect of religion to be destructive.

I absolutely agree on the first part; that's probably one of Judaism's biggest strengths - it was so dispersed and factionalized that no one could seize all the power... be it for theological and political reasons or just the simple fact that they lived half a world apart. They were forced by almost necessity to have little religious power.

Gibran is very much one of my biggest inspirations, absolutely love his works and he is who got me into the Sufis and other M.E. mystic sects - from there learning how much they overlapped with Eastern Orthodox mysticism and Buddhism/Taoism. While books like "The Prince" are required reading in school, books like "The Prophet" get forgotten.

Absolutely throw out the majority of institutions, but I just don't think the works themselves need to go - reformed? Absolutely, and that's where my problem is - there does exist a large (I would hope, and probably argue, majority) of reformed Christians, Muslims and Jews... but as much as we like to think the world has changed in the last hundred years... it really hasn't. It hasn't really changed much in the last 3000, from what I'm learning of my own people's heritage.

Shitty people will always hold the power, because power is their heroin that they are chemically dependent on. Change the name, change the system, but power is power - and the only people who want "that" level of power are the mentally deranged and morally destitute.

That's not changed yet, and I doubt it will - selfishness is bred into our little ape brain from childhood nowadays.
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Blackleaf

Quote from: ManUfan on November 12, 2022, 05:05:55 PMBut wait.. Objective morality!!
Where does your morality come from without the Bible. The set of rules laid out by the creator of everything for us all to follow.

Where would we be without those rules?

Without the Bible and the teachings of Christ we'd be destroying the planet, waging war, and contributing to the end of our existence.

Thank god for Jesus Christ.



Thankfully, we're not living by the Bible's barbaric rules, where a rapist's punishment is having to pay the father for his damaged goods, and everything else is punishable by death.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

aitm

Quote from: ManUfan on November 12, 2022, 05:05:55 PMBut wait.. Objective morality!!
Where does your morality come from without the Bible. The set of rules laid out by the creator of everything for us all to follow.

Where would we be without those rules?

Without the Bible and the teachings of Christ we'd be destroying the planet, waging war, and contributing to the end of our existence.

Thank god for Jesus Christ.


Same tired, worn out argument. A) what good is this "morality" when the followers only adhere to half the rules?
War? You must have been educated in a very quiet sparse area. Christianity was spread by war. Without all those different sects of Christian's killing each other in the name of the lord, why we would have had a peaceful world, at least a whole lot less killing.
But the whole of this argument is a perfect example of the arrogance and ego of the so-called Christian. To not understand, or care that people lived all over the world before jebus came to be known and they had very good cultures where people treated each other quite well. The rules for "civilized" behavior did not come from god, "god" took the rules already shown to work and called them his own.
Lastly, you should thank the Jews for Jesus, without them killing him your religion wouldn't even exist.LOL..
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Blackleaf

Quote from: aitm on November 20, 2022, 07:22:46 AMSame tired, worn out argument. A) what good is this "morality" when the followers only adhere to half the rules?
War? You must have been educated in a very quiet sparse area. Christianity was spread by war. Without all those different sects of Christian's killing each other in the name of the lord, why we would have had a peaceful world, at least a whole lot less killing.
But the whole of this argument is a perfect example of the arrogance and ego of the so-called Christian. To not understand, or care that people lived all over the world before jebus came to be known and they had very good cultures where people treated each other quite well. The rules for "civilized" behavior did not come from god, "god" took the rules already shown to work and called them his own.
Lastly, you should thank the Jews for Jesus, without them killing him your religion wouldn't even exist.LOL..

Psst. He's being sarcastic. Check the OP. lol
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--