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Reality and Other Falsehoods

Started by Hydra009, October 07, 2022, 08:01:30 AM

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Shiranu

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 11, 2022, 10:31:32 PMCorrect.  The hypothesis of multiple universes (multiverse) does exist.  But this doesn't contradict Antithesis's statement that "there is only the one reality" - multiple universes would simply exist within one reality.

Then his statement doesn't contradict many theologies, making his "no" illogical.
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Hydra009

Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2022, 10:25:54 PMAlso, if something isn't necessarily "real" until someone observes it, that sounds like reality isn't so concrete of concept.
"Someone" isn't a necessary component for the observer effect and that's in fact a common and enduring misconception about quantum mechanics.  Only a detector/measuring device is needed to cause an observer effect.

It's been explained to me like a bat trying to navigate a cave.  Its detector - echolocation, sound waves - inherently affects what its trying to detect.  At the quantum scale, things are pretty easy to influence.  So trying to get a bead on what's going on by using a detector inevitably influences the results.

At least, that's my layman's understanding (and highly incomplete at that) of stuff waaaay above my pay grade.  It goes without saying that more study is needed to really get a handle on what exactly is going on at quantum scales, but the findings that I've linked in the OP essentially show that things are a lot more complicated and counter-intuitive at quantum scale than we would initially suspect.

Shiranu

So what we do understand does not contradict multiple faiths; making me ask again, why is there no room in the world for both when both are in agreement?

All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon


Shiranu

All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Mike Cl

Quote from: Shiranu on October 12, 2022, 02:08:41 AMSo what we do understand does not contradict multiple faiths; making me ask again, why is there no room in the world for both when both are in agreement?


I take umbridge with your use of 'faith'.  To me faith has nothing to do with facts or critical or rational thinking--or even thinking at all.  The 'Faiths' all suggest that to be true to their faith, that reason has to be rejected and one needs to strengthen their faith to find god or whatever super power they follow.  So, what we understand scientifically has no room for 'faith'.  And I don't see faith and science to be in agreement with much at all.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Shiranu

#36
Einstein - "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

QuoteThe 'Faiths' all suggest that to be true to their faith, that reason has to be rejected and one needs to strengthen their faith to find god or whatever super power they follow. 

 That is objectively false; plenty of religions outright state, "If science contradicts us, we are wrong and need to address it." and plenty more make little to no statements on the operations of the world to even need to reject or contradict scientific discovery.

Several faiths are also arguably pushing philosophy, rationalism and critical thinking far harder than many secular societies, certainly America's; our secular universities are cutting humanities - philosophy/ethics, history, literature - while promoting Economic and Business departments and increasing their sport budget.

You have men like Neil Degrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins getting on stage and saying quote, "If you are smart, and you get a philosophy degree... you are wasting an amazing brain.".

 What is philosophy, but understanding how to ask the most fundamental of questions? Not only that, but to understand why questions themselves logically make sense; and thus how to clearly view the world through a rational lens. Why then is it a waste of a brain to focus it on these questions?

Meanwhile, mainstream Judaism encourages children to read legal texts, poetry, mythology, literature and to view it analytically; why did so-and-so do such and such; and more importantly, to ask, "This contradicts history, so it's clearly not true - what then can we learn from the story itself, because a story not being true does not inherently remove it's moral." It teaches them to question these things in (at least) two different languages, which the ability to speak two language is scientifically proven to increase your IQ.

(And that's not even getting started on the fact that it is also the story that has allowed a people with no homeland for most of 3000 years to see themselves still as one people and how absolutely batshit that is, but that's a story for another time.)

Buddhism's has a famous 9th century phrase; "If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha." doesn't strike me as a religion that takes itself too seriously, and the core tenant of Buddhism - from it's home in India to China, Japan and even places in the Middle East - is that one must view the world rationally. The same is true of both Taoism and Confucianism (and all their off-spring).

Sufi's and several minority groups across the Muslim world were some of the leading intellectuals of the the Islamic Golden Age - nearly a thousand years ago they were inventing crank-shaft engines, advanced hydropower technology, and even several chemicals and materials that scientists today cant replicate.

Unfortunately... Timur happened, and tens of thousands of them were killed; it was said that the river Tigris, "...ran first red with the blood of the scholars, then black with the ink of thousands of books.". Add that purge of intellectuals (though the Ottoman's did try at times to bring it back) to several centuries of Western imperialism, and you get today's Islam.

Yay, barbarians... but to avoid a tangent, I think it's pretty clear that not all religions reject rationality, and not all secular institution embrace it.

I.e. - there is room in the world for both, because humanity works better together... not at each other's throat. This is literally what history shows; the greatest minds in human history - Newton, Einstein, Tesla, Moses ben Maimon, Bacon, Galilei, Ibn Sina, and I'm sure plenty of African and Asian inventors I'm just ignorant of - all agreed that both world's have something positive to offer and we shouldn't throw everything beautiful away because ugly darkness has touched it.

I'm not going to lie, I don't even pretend to be a 1/400th the brain of Einstein... and what he advocated was both pro-science (I think we can agree he was pretty well accredited in that field) and pro-faith. If he came to that conclusion, I'm gonna need someone on his intellectual level to explain to me why he is wrong.
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Mike Cl

Well, Shiranu, I guess I focus too much on the christian religion.  There is no room in that religion for rational thinking.  I have never had a problem with philosophy, though, and have found it interesting.  Personally, I do have room in my head for both rational thought and what I loosely term 'spirituality' and I try to balance them; much like trying to reach a constructive balance in my life for reasoned thought and emotional thought.  Not easy, but worth the effort. 

Your above paragraphs are good.  I do have a hard time with the word 'faith' and brand it as being empty headed and destructive to rational or critical thinking.  And faith and thinking just don't go together for me.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Shiranu

#38
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 12, 2022, 02:00:37 PMWell, Shiranu, I guess I focus too much on the christian religion.  There is no room in that religion for rational thinking.  I have never had a problem with philosophy, though, and have found it interesting.  Personally, I do have room in my head for both rational thought and what I loosely term 'spirituality' and I try to balance them; much like trying to reach a constructive balance in my life for reasoned thought and emotional thought.  Not easy, but worth the effort. 

Your above paragraphs are good.  I do have a hard time with the word 'faith' and brand it as being empty headed and destructive to rational or critical thinking.  And faith and thinking just don't go together for me.


Yeah, I wanted to mention that but felt it was getting just a little bit too "wall of text" - esp. for off-topic.

For sure, Christianity and Islam both have REALLY set a bad example of what religion is, and when it's all we really are ever exposed to... we quite logically have a really bad opinion of religion. In the East, you see the same thing with religion.

The only thing I would argue is that very few Christians have anything to do with the actual moral or spiritual message of Christ; everything they practice flies almost directly in the face of his teachings. If Christians actually behaved Christ-ly, our baseline opinion of religion as a whole would likely be quite different.

It's a bias, but it's one that makes perfect sense and holds a lot of credibility to it. "All stereotypes hold a shred of truth."
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon