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Reality and Other Falsehoods

Started by Hydra009, October 07, 2022, 08:01:30 AM

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Shiranu

They weren't making a scientific statement.
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

GSOgymrat

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 07, 2022, 12:32:48 PMWell, the main problem is that there's just a bunch of stuff we don't fully understand (yet) and then people fill that gap with woo because they can't handle living with uncertainty.

This.

Shiranu

#17
Quote from: Dark Lightning on October 07, 2022, 08:43:24 PMExcept that these guys are doing it with mathematics. It requires a vast quantity of knowledge and education. I have a B. Sc. in physics and can't even follow most of it...but "woo", it ain't.
Does the truth change because you used a different equation to discover it?

"Golden Chain of Homer", 1600s - they talk about the primordial chaos that spawned reality, and that all reality is a product of. (Amongst other things, including DNA and the water cycle)
Physcists, today - "Huh, yeah no chaos actually is the thing that instigated all of reality, and here is the math behind it. Infact the universe is becoming progressively less chaotic as it goes."

What is wrong with both religious gnostics (often scientists themselves) using allegorical language to describe a concept, and scientists coming to the same conclusion with math? Shouldn't we be celebrating that they were able to have a rough idea of these concepts using far more rudimentary tools and a much more developed sense of philosophy than us?

What would humanity be if it embraced both the philosophical wisdom of the prophets AND the scientific wisdom of secular studies?

If history is anything to go by... one hell of an amazing place, given all the achievements of man during periods like the Islamic Golden Age, the Al-Andalusian Golden Age, and periods of tolerance in Europe where religion and secular worked together to improve both lives.

Maybe that's what we should pragmatically strive for.
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Shiranu

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 07, 2022, 11:58:47 PMPublishing peer reviewed stuff is all the rage in scientific circles for some strange reason.  Haven't the foggiest why... *smash cut to centuries of superstition and religious violence*

So there is no room in the world for both science and faith?

All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

the_antithesis

Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2022, 04:34:59 PMSo there is no room in the world for both science and faith?



No.

Egotism is not even in the same realm as science. We need to stop treating them as if they are.

Shiranu

Quote from: the_antithesis on October 11, 2022, 04:38:21 PMNo.

Egotism is not even in the same realm as science. We need to stop treating them as if they are.

So the only realm that is allowed to exist is the realm of science?
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

the_antithesis

Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2022, 05:34:36 PMSo the only realm that is allowed to exist is the realm of science?

No, there is only the one reality. Science is just how we learn about it. Egotism is where they make up shit and say it's real.

Hydra009

#22
Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2022, 04:34:59 PMSo there is no room in the world for both science and faith?
That's a simple question with a very, very long answer.  My extremely abbreviated answer is that people should be wary of simplistic methodology and easy answers.

What I will tell you is that it grates on me when people put enormous amounts of work to expand human knowledge in a systematic way and we figure out that the universe is more complex than we ever imagined and religious people take credit, pretending that their favorite holy book figured it all out all along.  These people never put the work in and certainly never approached this stuff in anything like a rigorous way.  At best, it's a million and one guesses and some of them are sort of kind of maybe accurate if you squint hard enough.  It'd be like me trying to one-up my GPS by blindfolding myself, spinning around and then pointing in a random direction.  Sure, I might be right every now and then, but does that make me any sort of authority?  Or reliable at all?

Mike Cl

Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2022, 05:34:36 PMSo the only realm that is allowed to exist is the realm of science?
Of course not.  However, science is not a thing but a system of testing hypothesis which is any statement one wants to make about anything.  Then it is tested by the scientific  method.  If done correctly, your beliefs, faith, or wishful thinking has nothing to do with the outcome.  And the outcome can be either proof of or disproof of a statement.  So, science is not a 'realm' but just a method to determine facts.  Faith, beliefs or woo care nothing about facts; there is no system that can used to test any of those beliefs or faith or woo. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Shiranu

#24
Quote from: the_antithesis on October 11, 2022, 05:59:09 PMNo, there is only the one reality.

Does this very thread not put that very statement to question?
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

the_antithesis

Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2022, 08:46:36 PMDoes this very thread not put that very statement to question?


No. Should it?

Shiranu

Quote from: the_antithesis on October 11, 2022, 09:02:15 PMNo. Should it?
A thread about scientists discovering reality is not necessarily as "real" as we think it is (or at least, not with any certainty) isn't at all pertinent to a postition stating that there is "only one reality, and everyone should see it exactly as I do because science proved it right."?
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Hydra009

"real" in the sense that properties of matter - at the quantum state - are indeterminate (as far as we can tell)  That's not the same thing as multiple realities existing or the idea that reality is subjective or any other similar concept.

(the thread title is just a riff on the Elder Scrolls book of the same name)

Shiranu

#28
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 11, 2022, 10:10:05 PM"real" in the sense that properties of matter - at the quantum state - are indeterminate (as far as we can tell)  That's not the same thing as multiple realities existing or the idea that reality is subjective or any other similar concept.

(the thread title is just a riff on the Elder Scrolls book of the same name)
No, but it also indicates we don't have a clear understanding of exactly how relativity works; and most models do propose multiple universes at this point.

Also, if something isn't necessarily "real" until someone observes it, that sounds like reality isn't so concrete of concept.
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Hydra009

Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2022, 10:25:54 PMNo, but it also indicates we don't have a clear understanding of exactly how relativity works; and most models do propose multiple universes at this point.
Correct.  The hypothesis of multiple universes (multiverse) does exist.  But this doesn't contradict Antithesis's statement that "there is only the one reality" - multiple universes would simply exist within one reality.