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Reality and Other Falsehoods

Started by Hydra009, October 07, 2022, 08:01:30 AM

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Hydra009

The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It

QuoteOne of the more unsettling discoveries in the past half century is that the universe is not locally real. "Real," meaning that objects have definite properties independent of observation—an apple can be red even when no one is looking; "local" means objects can only be influenced by their surroundings, and that any influence cannot travel faster than light.

QuoteInstead, the evidence shows objects are not influenced solely by their surroundings and they may also lack definite properties prior to measurement.

QuoteUnder quantum mechanics, nature is not locally real—particles lack properties such as spin up or spin down prior to measurement, and seemingly talk to one another no matter the distance.

Blackleaf

I don't understand this at all. lol
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Hydra009

It's pretty over my head, too.

The non-locality thing is interesting.  Locality is the idea that "an object is influenced directly only by its immediate surroundings".

Imagine an island.  We would expect that the only things that affect the island from the outside are sunlight, winds, and waves.  But apparently that's not quite true - there's some "spooky action at a distance" (quantum entanglement) that seemingly affects things instantly - these changes are not propagated through the water or air.  Very strange.


Blackleaf

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 07, 2022, 11:47:25 AMIt's pretty over my head, too.

The non-locality thing is interesting.  Locality is the idea that "an object is influenced directly only by its immediate surroundings".

Imagine an island.  We would expect that the only things that affect the island from the outside are sunlight, winds, and waves.  But apparently that's not quite true - there's some "spooky action at a distance" (quantum entanglement) that seemingly affects things instantly - these changes are not propagated through the water or air.  Very strange.



I kind of suspected that was the case. I think I've heard similar ideas before, of this idea that everything is connected by these invisible, string-like connections. I wonder if these connections could any significant effects that could be seen with a naked eye. If it's limited to the quantum level, it might not really matter much.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

the_antithesis

I am reminded of something author Michael Crichton once wrote about Harlan Ellison. This was before Jurassic Park, but Ellison accused Crichton of writing bad science fiction. Crichton said that he agreed in that he didn't think of himself as a science fiction author, but it was annoying to placed into an unwanted category and then to be told that he fit that category badly.

So they make this narrow definition of real and then say that the universe isn't that. It's kind of clickbaity, ya know. "The universe isn't REAL!!!1!" When the problem is with the definition.

Therefore magic.

Actually, this sounds like someone like me who had just finished watching porn and then wrote this whole article based on the limited understanding they'd gotten from skimming the Wikipedia article once.

This is how woo gets started. Deepak Chopra has made a career out of mixing limited understanding of quantum mechanics and Eastern mysticism hokum.

Without going out of your door
You can know all things on Earth
Without looking out of your window
You could know the ways of Heaven

The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows

Arrive without traveling
See all without looking
Do all without doing

Sounds nice because you don't have to actually do anything.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 07, 2022, 09:52:18 AMI don't understand this at all. lol
Of course you don't! Nobody understands quantum mechanics - even the great Richard Feynman said so.
🤔
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Hydra009

Quote from: the_antithesis on October 07, 2022, 12:17:37 PMSo they make this narrow definition of real and then say that the universe isn't that. It's kind of clickbaity, ya know. "The universe isn't REAL!!!1!" When the problem is with the definition.

Therefore magic.

Actually, this sounds like someone like me who had just finished watching porn and then wrote this whole article based on the limited understanding they'd gotten from skimming the Wikipedia article once.
Well, the main problem is that there's just a bunch of stuff we don't fully understand (yet) and then people fill that gap with woo because they can't handle living with uncertainty.

Dark Lightning

Quote from: the_antithesis on October 07, 2022, 12:17:37 PMI am reminded of something author Michael Crichton once wrote about Harlan Ellison. This was before Jurassic Park, but Ellison accused Crichton of writing bad science fiction. Crichton said that he agreed in that he didn't think of himself as a science fiction author, but it was annoying to placed into an unwanted category and then to be told that he fit that category badly.

So they make this narrow definition of real and then say that the universe isn't that. It's kind of clickbaity, ya know. "The universe isn't REAL!!!1!" When the problem is with the definition.

Therefore magic.

Actually, this sounds like someone like me who had just finished watching porn and then wrote this whole article based on the limited understanding they'd gotten from skimming the Wikipedia article once.

This is how woo gets started. Deepak Chopra has made a career out of mixing limited understanding of quantum mechanics and Eastern mysticism hokum.

Without going out of your door
You can know all things on Earth
Without looking out of your window
You could know the ways of Heaven

The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows

Arrive without traveling
See all without looking
Do all without doing

Sounds nice because you don't have to actually do anything.


I like Beatles' music!

the_antithesis

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 07, 2022, 12:32:48 PMWell, the main problem is that there's just a bunch of stuff we don't fully understand (yet) and then people fill that gap with woo because they can't handle living with uncertainty.

Or they found a space they could fill with their woo. Either or.

Shiranu

Sounds awfully familiar to a lot of metaphysical world views that have been saying this for several thousand years...
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Dark Lightning

Except that these guys are doing it with mathematics. It requires a vast quantity of knowledge and education. I have a B. Sc. in physics and can't even follow most of it...but "woo", it ain't.

Unbeliever

Quote from: the_antithesis on October 07, 2022, 12:17:37 PMSounds nice because you don't have to actually do anything.

Seems like it fits with the "principle of least action."
🤔
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Hydra009

Quote from: Shiranu on October 07, 2022, 08:00:51 PMSounds awfully familiar to a lot of metaphysical world views that have been saying this for several thousand years...
If only they published a peer-reviewed paper on the matter, they could've saved Einstein a lot of effort.

Shiranu

All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

Hydra009

Quote from: Shiranu on October 07, 2022, 11:55:02 PMWhy would they need to?
Publishing peer reviewed stuff is all the rage in scientific circles for some strange reason.  Haven't the foggiest why... *smash cut to centuries of superstition and religious violence*