On theism, why do theists have moral duties even if there is objective morality?

Started by Pnerd, May 21, 2022, 03:23:07 PM

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Pnerd

I was listening to William Lane Craig's moral argument. Even if we grant him that God exists and objective morality exists and god is the basis of objective morality, why do humans have moral duties? Why according to theists do we have to be good and do good to other humans other than for a selfish interest in going to heaven or avoiding hell? He just claims that we do have moral duties (just like he claims by fiat that objective moral values exist). But why, on theism, do humans have a moral duty to be good to others?
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
– Douglas Adams

the_antithesis

Quote from: Pnerd on May 21, 2022, 03:23:07 PMI was listening to William Lane Craig's moral argument.

What a coinkidink! So was I.

Wait.

No.

I just made a loud, wet, echoy fart into the toilet.

Same thing, really.

Shiranu

Quote... why do humans have moral duties?

Depends on the theist; for a Zoroastrian, all the good deeds of one's life are collected by the faravahar (a personal angel, loosely) and deposited in the pool of "good" to see if it outweighs evil at the end times. For a Buddhist, moral duties bring us closer to our perfect self - they are not just commandments but advice. For some pagans they hold a similar belief to the Zoroastrians (not surprising, since Hinduism/Zorastrianism/Western paganism all share a common ancestor religion) that your good deeds help fight cosmic evil in one form or another.

As for Christians/Jews/Muslims (as I figure you meant), I honestly don't know other than, "because you should" - with the whole redemption thing, at least for Christians, there doesn't seem to be much selfless reason to be a good person as there are in older religions.

Quote...other than for a selfish interest in going to heaven or avoiding hell?

Honestly, philosophers are still trying to answer exactly that (or rather, if such an act is really "selfish" or if any act is "selfless").

QuoteBut why, on theism, do humans have a moral duty to be good to others?

Yeah, again for Christians I really am not sure why; there is no objective reason in nature to be moral (other than it overwhelmingly makes life easier for everyone) and no real commandment to either - the only commandment really is to just accept Jesus right as you die and feel really bad and you are good to go.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

FreethinkingSceptic

Quote from: Pnerd on May 21, 2022, 03:23:07 PMBut why, on theism, do humans have a moral duty to be good to others?
Why do they have a moral duty to validate to anyone why they have a moral duty?

Pnerd

Quote from: FreethinkingSceptic on May 22, 2022, 04:08:50 PMWhy do they have a moral duty to validate to anyone why they have a moral duty?
If they make the claim (as Craig did), they have the burden of proof if they want to convince others that their claim is true.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
– Douglas Adams

FreethinkingSceptic

Quote from: Pnerd on May 22, 2022, 04:26:34 PMIf they make the claim (as Craig did), they have the burden of proof if they want to convince others that their claim is true.
Not necessarily, there might be some people who will be convinced based on the claim alone, regardless of burden of proof.

Pnerd

Quote from: FreethinkingSceptic on May 22, 2022, 06:00:56 PMNot necessarily, there might be some people who will be convinced based on the claim alone, regardless of burden of proof.
I'm not, which is why I asked the question. Isn't that what these forums are for – asking questions?
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
– Douglas Adams

FreethinkingSceptic

Quote from: Pnerd on May 22, 2022, 06:21:10 PMI'm not, which is why I asked the question. Isn't that what these forums are for – asking questions?
Well unless you can go back in time and show me a video recording of evolution taking place, I'm not inclined to believe it either.

Pnerd

Quote from: FreethinkingSceptic on May 22, 2022, 06:35:55 PMWell unless you can go back in time and show me a video recording of evolution taking place, I'm not inclined to believe it either.
You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you that evolution happened.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
– Douglas Adams

the_antithesis

Quote from: FreethinkingSceptic on May 22, 2022, 06:35:55 PMWell unless you can go back in time and show me a video recording of evolution taking place, I'm not inclined to believe it either.
That's not how science works.

Simoon

Quote from: FreethinkingSceptic on May 22, 2022, 06:35:55 PMWell unless you can go back in time and show me a video recording of evolution taking place, I'm not inclined to believe it either.

How do you think murderers are convicted? Do you think every conviction requires video?

There are other ways to demonstrate evolution is a fact, just like there are other ways to demonstrate that a murderer is guilty.