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Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?

Started by Cassia, December 28, 2021, 01:01:42 PM

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Shiranu

#90
QuoteDude, when did you go off the deep end? Did you spend a few days in Ba Sing Se's dungeons?

Quite the contrary, at a social level it's based on the ideas of Kant and Voltaire (two of the key individuals of essentially all modern Western ethics) and at a political level the Bookchin, Kropotkin, Proudhon.

Quote"There is no pandemic. Everything is fine. Hospitals are not being overrun. They all just got together and decided to pretend that things are going to shit because reasons."

That is not remotely what I said, and the fact that you are placing this statement upon me, like you do to Jason, proves you aren't really interest in any actual discussion but rather painting everyone with the same brush and ignoring that doesn't actually cover the beliefs but rather puts us in nice little categories and stereotypes.

Quote
I think he means that they test everyone, and if positive, you get written as a covid patient getting treated in that hospital. Something on purpose, conspiracy kind.


To the first half, yes; that is exactly what I am saying and I'm glad at least someone understood that. As for the second, that is putting words in my mouth I neither said nor believe.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, I don't believe there is some malicious force working to manipulate and exploit people (although the pharmaceutical companies sure as hell are enjoying doing exactly that to our government)... it's just statistics get recorded and people misinterpret what they mean; yes, 15% of vaccinated are hospitalized while having Covid; however that is an entirely different concept than 15% are vaccinated FOR Covid.

The latter sounds terrifying; the first acknowledges that number is not nearly as scary as it sounds. The second allows the government and society to overstep it's bounds and impose irrational behaviors and coercions out of fear at best and malicious power grabbing at worst.

QuoteThe Shiranu of just a little over a year ago would have been mortified and embarrassed by this sort of talk.

I'll take that as a complement; if you aren't growing intellectually and philosophically, that is not a positive.


QuoteAlso, why would someone whose sole injury is a broken arm test positive for covid?


Because they are Covid positive?

Like... ? ? ?


My mom just had a mini-stroke the day before New Years; when I took her to the hospital, she was tested for Covid; if she had been positive, she would have been counted as a hospitalized Covid patient.



Just because you are in the hospital and test positive with Covid =/= Covid is the culprit, but when you look at just the raw numbers of people in the hospital who test positive for Covid it gives a false impression that therefor Covid (for the vaccinated) is extremely dangerous and requires government infringement of individual liberty to solve.
All the evils that men cause to each other because of certain desires, or opinions or religious principles, are rooted in ignorance. [All hatred would come to an end] when the earth was flooded with the knowledge of God. - Moses Ben Maimon

drunkenshoe

#91
They have tested your mom who is very old and had a stroke for covid, in a covid pandemic, and because if found positive she would be recorded as a covid patient, you decided hospitals and health staff who has seen thousands of cases, every kind of examples, anomalies and knows what to do ahead of time is purposefully inflating numbers everywhere and you expressed this opinion with the example of someone with broken arm? And you are throwing a bunch of philosophers' name to explain your thought process?

You skipped the simplest explanation and jumped a mile to figuring out something grift, malicious going on, affecting everyone in period of emergency. (The philosopher's name we need here is William, he's a Franciscan friar lived in the late Middle Ages.)

The simple explanation is that you are highly depressed, and probably going through some sort of PTSD with what happened with your mom on top of that. Which all are very normal. People think you are in to conspiracies because you sound that way. Not just the opinion, but the reasoning and the expression. It doesn't sound like your usual one which again takes me back to depression and some emotional distress. We haven't just met, don't you think we know each other here in this forum a little?
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

SGOS

Quote from: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 01:41:24 AM
Everything aside, do you really think something like this is possible to pull off?
Actual National/Global, or even Local conspiracies are very hard to pull off, because there have to be too many people involved, an there are too many opportunities for the nefarious act to be exposed.  Small conspiracies involving less than 10 conspirators are much easier to orchestrate and actually happen, where there are only a few members sworn to secrecy.

But here is the interesting part.  Getting large masses to believe that a conspiracy exists, even where there is no conspiracy, is easier to pull off.  There are reasons for this.  Where nothing bad is actually afoot, there is naturally no evidence around to verify the conspiracy.  This provides an atmosphere of "ignorance," ignorance being defined as the absence of knowledge, and the absence of verifiable knowledge is where humans default to mysterious explanations.  And mystery itself is fun in much the way science fiction is fun.  We get to set aside logic and actual knowledge to entertain an environment of pure fantasy.

In addition, if the fantasy serves some ideological position or personal principle, it is adopted into the ideology or principal to be used as a fallacious argument to very effectively support the ideology among large masses that feel compelled to promote it for one purpose or another.

It is also fun and even empowering to feel like one is an insider who belongs to an elite group that is privy to evidence that is hidden from the general public.  Even when the theory itself is widely publicized, there is still a sense of being an insider with access to information that is not known, or even can never be known.

drunkenshoe

Yeah, I agree with you. But I think here with our friend, it is more about worry. I'm saying that because I feel the same, I know I'm afraid and worried, and guess everyone should be in some place similar to that. And this is all too much. We do continue to our lives, but nothing is normal.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

SGOS

Quote from: Shiranu on January 02, 2022, 01:52:21 AM
Just because you are in the hospital and test positive with Covid =/= Covid is the culprit, but when you look at just the raw numbers of people in the hospital who test positive for Covid it gives a false impression that therefor Covid (for the vaccinated) is extremely dangerous and requires government infringement of individual liberty to solve.
Equally as bad as selectively interpreting data is providing false data, as was exposed in Florida, where officials were knowingly not reporting Covid, or in districts that hide Covid by reporting "pneumonia like" symptoms.  I recall Baruch claiming that hospitals were reporting un-diagnosed Covid to get more money (later debunked), even while some districts were hiding Covid.  When we see people pointing fingers away from themselves and their ideologies, it's a warning to be aware of what people are trying to hide or defend.  It's the same thing to claim those who stormed the Capitol to destroy the democratic process are not at fault, because Black Lives Matter creates havoc.

SGOS

Quote from: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 06:13:04 AM
Yeah, I agree with you. But I think here with our friend, it is more about worry. I'm saying that because I feel the same, I know I'm afraid and worried.
There is every reason for worry at this time.  Even more than just a pandemic, the world seems to be falling into chaos and discord, and this cannot end well.  The difference here is that you are examining your inner self in a time of crisis, while Shiranu is focused outside himself to explain his inner conflict.

Cassia

I don't see efforts to lessen the severity of a pandemic with a higher death toll than any US war as a gateway to fascism or overcontrol. The US government is fairly ineffective and is overrated by these right wingers. Take the FAA. They were so understaffed and clueless that they rely heavily on the good word of Boeing who secretly designed-in a system that could crash a plane based on one bad sensor. The IRS has let churches become political rallies.

If anything, the average US citizen has more freedoms than ever. From smoking weed to owning 60 guns to circumventing legal tender with bitcoin to declaring your gender and producing online porn in your bedroom.


Hydra009

Quote from: Cassia on January 02, 2022, 09:37:48 AMI don't see efforts to lessen the severity of a pandemic with a higher death toll than any US war as a gateway to fascism or overcontrol.
I dunno, I saw an image of Fauci with a hitler mustache on Fox News, which I found very compelling evidence.  /sarcasm

QuoteIf anything, the average US citizen has more freedoms than ever. From smoking weed to owning 60 guns to circumventing legal tender with bitcoin to declaring your gender and producing online porn in your bedroom.
Wait...you guys are getting paid?  :P

In seriousness, that's true and that's great.  Gay rights and trans rights as well.

The bad thing is that at the same time, several freedoms are under assault, from Roe V Wade to basic voting rights to access to information at public libraries.

Blackleaf

#98
Quote from: Shiranu on January 02, 2022, 01:52:21 AMThat is not remotely what I said,

You're claiming that the problem isn't as bad as it's being made out to be. That the greater issue isn't getting more people vaccinated, but protecting people's rights to refuse a free, safe, and effective vaccine.

Are hospitals busier than normal: Y/N?

Are more people dying in hospitals than normal: Y/N?

Are the patients with Covid who are dying overwhelmingly unvaccinated: Y/N?

If you answered "no" to any of these questions, your views are not in line with reality.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Blackleaf

There are literally people having their life-saving surgeries postponed because of this shit. Someone in my neighborhood told me her mother had cancer, and her treatment was postponed because there were so many goddamn people flooding the hospitals with Covid. She's not the only one I've heard such stories from, either. This is happening everywhere. So no, I don't have any sympathy for the people dying of Covid. They had their chance to protect themselves, and they chose conspiracy over facts, so now it's biting them in the ass, and fucking over everybody else in the process. This is an easily avoidable problem people will not get on-board with because the Orange Mussolini decided to turn public health into a fucking political issue.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

FreethinkingSceptic

#100
Quote from: Cassia on December 28, 2021, 01:01:42 PM Being a materialist and a mild determinist, I do sometimes wonder if these people deserve to be mocked. Nurses often report that they beg for the vax once they get the grim prognosis. They don't even know how a vaccine works. Do these people really even have a chance or choice?

I liken it to ghetto kids that end up in jail. The odds are overwhelming. The future is often portrayed as being unknowable. I think that maybe individual cases are unpredictable, yes... but a properly calculated probability will always play out over time, just like a flipped coin will approach 50% as N approached that sideways 8.

Are these people as much of a victim as anyone during this pandemic?

I'm not particularly concerned one way or another, I'm only interested in the legal side of things and the issues at play here, silly terms and Urban dictionary definitions like "anti-vaxxer/anti-masker" which have no relevance to our laws or social institutions invested in the issues don't interest me.

The same goes for some weird incel or social outcast screaming about "anti-vaxxers" or whatnot on the internet from his mom's basement, blindly parroting his memes by rote with all the quaint knowledge and understanding of vaccines that he was able to comprehend and regurgitate in Kindergarden, and conflating that with even a layman's technical understanding of the principles behind which vaccines are asserted to follow - and the fact that no two "vaccines" are even the same aside from involving a needle.

Or that medical industries are "science" (in the Baconian or natural scientific sense, like physics) anymore than music theory (or "music science") is.

Just like he'd be parroting that the earth is flat, had he been instructed in that little factoid in Kindergarten as well) - rending any serious intellectual discourse with such pitiable individuals futile - since whatever factoid they're rote-repeating has less relevance to the matter than the fact that they were rote-instructed it at such an early and impressionable age. With "rabid anti-vaxxers" or whatever the strawman is there being almost as irrelevant.

Since what is being done is merely ranting and repeating by rote while entirely oblivious to the facts or people surrounding it, not "discourse" in any sense of the term.