Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?

Started by Cassia, December 28, 2021, 01:01:42 PM

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Draconic Aiur

It's like my brother said. It should never be mandatory, but that doesnt excuse people from acting like idiots

Gawdzilla Sama

I'm all for shooting anyone who refuses the vaccine and remains in the general population. Find a cave in the Andes, I won't shoot you.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Mermaid

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 07:16:21 PM
There is a difference between someone who opposes the vax and someone who opposes the mandate.  I am severely allergic to the word "mandatory" yet I believe in vaccination.  Where do I fit on your spectrum?
You asked, I answer: You're either sorely misinformed, or your priorities are really fucked up.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Mermaid

I needed certain vaccines in order to attend graduate school. I would have suffered consequences had I not complied. Up to me to decide what I wanted. Refusing the vaccines has no basis in logic other than obstinacy. It's clearly safe and effective.

If you act like a idiot, you're treated like one. That's life. Oh well. Sucks to be you.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Hydra009

I just wanna let you guys know that I'm all for seatbelts, I just don't think they should be MANDATORY.  Because freedom.  *sound of people flying through the windshield at 100 freedom units*

Mike Cl

I hate the fact that it is mandatory to stop at the 'stop' sign.  I hate that it is mandatory to put in 246 days of teaching each year.  I hate that it is mandatory that I stop when the railroad crossbeams come down.  I hate it is mandatory to drive on the right side of the road.  I hate that it is mandatory that for the lights to work I have to use the on/off switch.  I hate that it is mandatory that I have to pay for shit in the stores.  Or that I have to pay whatever price they put on it.  I just hate mandatory...................
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Shiranu

#21
I have to agree with Jsaon on this; I am personally triple jabbed (only because of my grandmother) but the government simply does not, or at least should not, have the authority to tell people they have to have a medical procedure done to their body without their consent.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Dark Lightning

People in this country should be exposed to an education that discusses the risks of both the disease and risk of the vaccine, whichever disease it is for. The way it is in this country, there is a serious epidemic of ignorance, which isn't helping with the problem. Notwithstanding the outright lying and disinformation that is being spread. That disinformation is criminal, and would be treated that way in many other countries. Freedom of speech is killing USians left and right.

PopeyesPappy

Quote from: Shiranu on December 29, 2021, 11:56:19 PM
I have to agree with Jsaon on this; I am personally triple jabbed (only because of my grandmother) but the government simply put does not and should not have the authority to tell people they have to have a medical procedure done to their body without their consent.

As far as I know the government has not forced anyone to get a vaccine without their consent. They have made it a condition of employment, but that isn't forcing somebody to do something without their consent. Get the jab or find another job is a choice. 

Quote from: Dark Lightning on December 30, 2021, 12:16:42 AM
People in this country should be exposed to an education that discusses the risks of both the disease and risk of the vaccine, whichever disease it is for. The way it is in this country, there is a serious epidemic of ignorance, which isn't helping with the problem. Notwithstanding the outright lying and disinformation that is being spread. That disinformation is criminal, and would be treated that way in many other countries. Freedom of speech is killing USians left and right.

First off our government is not above lying to us. If you don't believe that I feel bad for you.

Having said that, part of the problem as I see it is some of the misinformation being spread is being generated by the government, and they aren't doing enough to fix the problem. Take a look at this:



Most here probably know the NVIC is a shit organization, but the data they posted came straight from VAERS, a government database implemented to track vaccine related health treads. I downloaded the VAERS data on 12/21, created a database, imported the vax data from 2020 and 2021, and got the following results.



On 12/21/21 the VAERS database says that 11,689 people in the US died in 2020 and 2021 after reporting adverse side effects for receiving a vaccine. 11,036 of those reports were related to the Covid vaccines. Now the government attaches all kinds of disclaimers to this data. Starting with if anything it is underreported. Antivaxers latch onto this shit like a pitbull on a T-bone. Conformation bias keeps them from looking at facts that might mitigate how bad this looks like most of these people did not die as a result of the vaccines because that data is not published.

Most people can look at the data and understand the vaccine is safer than the virus.



Even after adding 20,000 probably didn't happen vaccine deaths.



But if you are a 30 something Trumper that has already had COVID and suffered little to no long term ill effects like the vast majority of people that get the virus, and the government you hate tells you get the vax or else, I can see where they would be pissed.

Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.


Shiranu

Quote
As far as I know the government has not forced anyone to get a vaccine without their consent. They have made it a condition of employment, but that isn't forcing somebody to do something without their consent. Get the jab or find another job is a choice.

"You don't HAVE to get it, you can just starve to death if you don't."
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

SGOS

#25
Quote from: Shiranu on December 29, 2021, 11:56:19 PM
I have to agree with Jsaon on this; I am personally triple jabbed (only because of my grandmother) but the government simply does not, or at least should not, have the authority to tell people they have to have a medical procedure done to their body without their consent.
You don't seem to understand reasons for mandates.  In addition, you and Jason seem to have an idiosyncratic definition of freedom.  And being so deeply principled in your own beliefs, you advocate disregard for public safety.  Why the fuck should I be required to stop at a red light!?  Well, I don't have to.  Of course I might lose my driver's license, but that's OK because I can come to the forum and bitch about it, and I'll still drive my car without a license.  Does that fit our definition of freedom?

SGOS

Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 03:46:57 AM
"You don't HAVE to get it, you can just starve to death if you don't."
This is an exaggeration.  You don't have to starve to death if you don't want a vaccination.  You can still find employment somewhere else.  For example, you could move to South Dakota and be a bartender in Sturgis for the motor cycle rally.  No one would care about whether you are vaccinated there.  See, there are always alternatives to starvation.

Hydra009

#27
On the flip side, having to work cheek-by-jowl with a plague bearer and risking not only your life, but your family's lives because some halfwit decided that mandatory childhood vaccinations are fine but this vaccine in particular is part of some grand conspiracy by the government and somehow violates freedom is not exactly a pleasant experience.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 29, 2021, 11:30:50 PM
I hate the fact that it is mandatory to stop at the 'stop' sign.  I hate that it is mandatory to put in 246 days of teaching each year.  I hate that it is mandatory that I stop when the railroad crossbeams come down.  I hate it is mandatory to drive on the right side of the road.  I hate that it is mandatory that for the lights to work I have to use the on/off switch.  I hate that it is mandatory that I have to pay for shit in the stores.  Or that I have to pay whatever price they put on it.  I just hate mandatory...................
Don't usually quote myself.  But--mandatory is just another word for freedom (I can hear Janis Joplin singing that).  It is mandatory to have the measles vaccine, and for small pox, chicken pox, tetanus,  cholera, and on and on.  I am free of those diseases.  There are thousands of driving laws that are mandatory.  There are rules and regs about our work.  Our lives are full of mandatory.  And rightly so.  All govts have them; all societies have them.  It is mandatory if one wants a safe and sane society.  All govts, everywhere and everywhen, have mandatories.  All.  Without them, there is only choas and the mandatories still exist, for whoever is the mightiest makes them.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

GSOgymrat

It's best when people are offered a choice and interventions need not be "all or nothing" or rigid. There is no ideal intervention in a situation as complex as a global pandemic and everything comes at a cost. All the negative consequences of the pandemic including deaths, "long haulers" who have ongoing symptoms post-infection, job loss, business closures, travel restrictions, isolation, mental stress, and such means we as a society need to temporarily take measures we would not normally consider, such as vaccination mandates, because not taking these measures leads to even worse consequences. Everyone wants the pandemic to end and the disagreement is how to best make that happen. I'm not willing to hear arguments that the pandemic is not real or that the COVID vaccines are not effective-- 93% of people with COVID in the ICU where I work are unvaccinated in a county where 83% of residents have at least one dose. To the people who are against vaccine mandates-- What should be done to increase vaccination rates or to end this pandemic? The "freedom" to move about society unvaccinated comes at an enormous cost.