Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?

Started by Jagella, October 08, 2021, 06:07:24 PM

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Greatest I am

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2021, 09:41:48 AM
Does God's great plan explain snottites?

Yes.

From my list of useless information.

Strangely, we harvest it and other pusses from animals for cheese manufacture etc.

Regards
DL

Mike Cl

Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:52:59 AM
To be cruel, a sentient being must have an evil intent.

Nature has a benevolent intent, not that nature thinks, that we judge as good because we are her to judge it and most would think this to be a good thing.

Nature is thus not amoral or immoral, and that leaves moral as our only one choice, if nature were sentient.

Natures first act is to give life a chance to live and die.

Nature, to intelligent thinking entities like us, will be seen to be good, but not moral.

Morals take thought, and nature does not think or know that she is creating for the best possible end for life, --- as far as we can know.

Regards
DL


I disagree--nature is neither good nor bad--it just is.  For plants and creatures that require energy from the sun to live, it is cruel.  For plants, they gather energy from the sun.  For animals, they have to gather it from eating plants (which is life) or other creatures that eat plants.  Creature killing creature is not pretty--but totally necessary.  And cruel.  I don't like it, but for me to live I must kill; whether plant or animal, I must harvest my energy from other life.  That is just the way it is and there is not a thing I can do about it.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

aitm

Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:52:59 AM


Nature has a benevolent intent,

“Nature” is indifferent. Nature is not an entity, nor anything….merely a word that implies the all of life with the all of weather.
Nature does recognize, doesn’t know we exist as “it” doesn’t know anything.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hydra009


SGOS

Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:52:59 AM
Nature, to intelligent thinking entities like us, will be seen to be good, but not moral.
Humans tend to imbue nature with human-like qualities, even though it has none.  I think we feel a kinship with it because it such a big part of our lives.  Like kin, nature can be good or bad, but it's still a kind of kinship, whether it be a loving spouse or an annoying relative.

trdsf

Quote from: SGOS on December 02, 2021, 08:07:12 AM
Humans tend to imbue nature with human-like qualities, even though it has none.  I think we feel a kinship with it because it such a big part of our lives.  Like kin, nature can be good or bad, but it's still a kind of kinship, whether it be a loving spouse or an annoying relative.
And humans are such finely tuned pattern-matching machines that we can spot patterns where there aren't any.  It's our experience in day to day life that complicated things are made rather than just happen, and reality is complicated, therefore...

And you're right, anthropomorphicization is deeply ingrained in us, not only in casual conversation but in discussion of scientific matters.  I remember Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 being described as 'taking dead aim on Jupiter' when no such aiming happened, it was a chance crossing of two orbital paths.  The alkaline metals are often described as 'wanting' to give up an electron -- well, no, an atom is incapable of wanting anything, it's just reacting to atomic and quantum mechanical forces.  It's pernicious in our speech and in our thinking.

I've tried for years to rid myself of the words 'sunrise' and 'sunset' because the sun isn't moving... and you know what, I can't.  The terms are too useful, no matter how inaccurate they are, and are a lot more obvious in meaning than 'horizonfall' and 'horizonrise' or some other circumlocution.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: trdsf on January 12, 2022, 12:40:30 PM
I've tried for years to rid myself of the words 'sunrise' and 'sunset' because the sun isn't moving... and you know what, I can't.  The terms are too useful, no matter how inaccurate they are, and are a lot more obvious in meaning than 'horizonfall' and 'horizonrise' or some other circumlocution.
I don't let other people control my speech. I also have no trouble calling a liter a quart.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

trdsf

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 13, 2022, 01:29:42 PM
I also have no trouble calling a liter a quart.
*wince*  I do, because it's not a quart.  It's very nearly a quart, but it's not a quart.

Those are the kinds of details that jump up and bite me on the ass.  XD
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: trdsf on January 15, 2022, 01:41:56 AM
*wince*  I do, because it's not a quart.  It's very nearly a quart, but it's not a quart.

Those are the kinds of details that jump up and bite me on the ass.  XD
Well, a microliter one way or the other is unimportant. Being anal about that is just silly.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

trdsf

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 15, 2022, 08:52:35 AM
Well, a microliter one way or the other is unimportant. Being anal about that is just silly.
[pedant]Actually, it's 5.4 centiliters[/pedant] :D
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Greatest I am

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 01, 2021, 02:43:54 PM
I disagree--nature is neither good nor bad--it just is.  For plants and creatures that require energy from the sun to live, it is cruel.  For plants, they gather energy from the sun.  For animals, they have to gather it from eating plants (which is life) or other creatures that eat plants.  Creature killing creature is not pretty--but totally necessary.  And cruel.  I don't like it, but for me to live I must kill; whether plant or animal, I must harvest my energy from other life.  That is just the way it is and there is not a thing I can do about it.   

What I said on evil applies to good as well.

I do not think we have an argument on this aspect.

You are not killing with an evil intent, when forced to by nature to kill for food.

Regars
DL

Greatest I am

Quote from: aitm on December 01, 2021, 02:49:36 PM
“Nature” is indifferent. Nature is not an entity, nor anything….merely a word that implies the all of life with the all of weather.
Nature does recognize, doesn’t know we exist as “it” doesn’t know anything.

I agree that nature is not sentient and cannot be moral or immoral.

The result of the way nature works, would have to be seen as good by all life, if it could reason.

The small bit of evil in nature is a must to gain the greater good.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

Quote from: SGOS on December 02, 2021, 08:07:12 AM
Humans tend to imbue nature with human-like qualities, even though it has none.  I think we feel a kinship with it because it such a big part of our lives.  Like kin, nature can be good or bad, but it's still a kind of kinship, whether it be a loving spouse or an annoying relative.

No argument, but I would not say that nature can be good or bad, because those take intent, and nature cannot have a conscious intent.

You and I can perceive the good and bad in nature though.

Regards
DL


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