Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?

Started by Jagella, October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PM

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Greatest I am

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 08, 2022, 07:11:29 PM
Tribal, yes, since that's how chimps operate and early humans were likely quite similar.  Spiritual?  I'm going to need a citation for that.

The oldest serpent shrine I know of us 75,000 years old.

Cave paintings are even older.

Most scholars see spirituality and or religion in burial practices.

If that is not enough then think of how most think in a material dualism way, body/soul, and wonder why the world has always had religions.

Something like 96% of us think dualistically and posit our immaterial soul as a mystery, just as God was intended and is a mystery.

The mainstream religions have forgotten that and are just cheep idol worshipers of a mostly evil god.

Regards
DL


Greatest I am

Quote from: aitm on January 08, 2022, 10:05:40 PM
I would simply suggest that your opinion is wrong. The idea that a “superior” male would not kill his second because it would lessen their hunting abilities at the sacrifice of his mating with whomever he wanted is not realistic. We have had wars…many wars over a woman…not so many over a hamburger. Give a man a fuck..he’ll skip dinner for two days..give a man a filet instead of a fuck..,he’ll still take the fuck,

Those are someone else's ideas.

Perhaps you had better start using the quote function. You put idiocies into my mouth.

Regards
DL



Mike Cl

I'm not sure humans are inherently spiritual.  I can imagine almost all very, very early groups had a leader.  And that leader was the strongest male.  That male would get the best of what that group had to offer--with brute strength.  I can also imagine a lessor strength male who was also very intelligent.  I can see that one developing a 'spiritual' side because he knew he would never out muscle the leader.  What better way than interpreting the 'mysteries' the world offered them than being able to know what that god or gods, wanted.  So, he created another locus of power--god.  God can be very powerful, especially if you are it's mouthpiece.  And that spiritual guide would not want the group to know what he did--especially that he created 'god'.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Greatest I am

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 09, 2022, 05:20:32 PM
I'm not sure humans are inherently spiritual.   

Has the vast majority of us to date not been religious?

Even today, stats favor the spiritual and religious.

Regards
DL

Mike Cl

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 09:53:58 AM
Has the vast majority of us to date not been religious?

Even today, stats favor the spiritual and religious.

Regards
DL
Because most people believe something does not constitute proof that that belief is accurate or truthful.  Proof of a god(s) would constitute-----well, proof.  There is none.  Not a scrap.  Yes, most humans believe in a higher power of some sort.  And most likely, always have.  Yet with the thousands upon thousands of years of belief, there is still not one single scrap of proof that a god(s) exists.  That, to me, is a sort of proof against the actual existence of any such thing--god(s).  Can you cite any proof whatsoever that a higher power exists?????
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

aitm

Quote from: Greatest I am link=topic=14410.msg1305840#msg1305840 date=

Perhaps you had better start using the quote function. You put idiocies into my mouth.

Regards
DL




I don’t need quote functions to put idiocies in your mouth when that’s where they came from.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Greatest I am

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Because most people believe something does not constitute proof that that belief is accurate or truthful.  Proof of a god(s) would constitute-----well, proof.  There is none.  Not a scrap.  Yes, most humans believe in a higher power of some sort.  And most likely, always have.  Yet with the thousands upon thousands of years of belief, there is still not one single scrap of proof that a god(s) exists.  That, to me, is a sort of proof against the actual existence of any such thing--god(s).  Can you cite any proof whatsoever that a higher power exists?????

Hell no.

The idea of a God should valued for thought, but to find a god is to become an idol worshiper.

If you find a god, kill it.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers who have sent Yahweh to hell for his crimes against humanity. Not that he ever existed.

If there was a higher power, it would be the duty of all of us to destroy it if we could not bend it to our will.

Survival of the fittest.

Regards
DL

aitm

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 09:53:58 AM
Has the vast majority of us to date not been religious?

Regards
DL


Being forced to believe in a religion, does not mean we are born spiritual or religious. Practically every religion today was spread by the sword…perhaps that’s what god intended eh?

We can actually watch the evolution of “spiritual” thought by watching children as they become more cognizant of life and the world. They create “friends” with inanimate objects, much like our ancestors did as they became more aware…children start projecting human qualities onto rocks and toys and animals as well, if left alone perhaps the concept of god would never come to them, but of course that rarely happens, most children are indoctrinated.

Are early ancestors left clear signs of their evolution into superstition, animism, totemism, shamans, priests, religions. Anthropology and archeology has quite the evidence of their ascent….and superstitious beliefs can be easily rolled into religions by the ignorant to the ignorant.

Humanity has had thousands if not tens of thousand of gods and they have all had the same ability to have the same success at preventing disease, sickness or death. None.

Either they all exist or none do.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Greatest I am

#188
I do not think a person can be forced into a belief.

He or she might adopt it for a number of reasons, but that is not belief.

That is why religions push faith, not belief.

Yes, religions were spread by the sword.

It began as a two edged sword of debate and discussion and seeking the best rules and laws to live by, then Christianity turned to inquisitions and force instead of moral arguments to persuade.

Most atheists say they are spiritual. No religion is required to be so.

In fact, a religion is likely a hinderance to spiritual thinking.

Regards
DL


Mike Cl

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 11:42:27 AM
I do not think a person can be forced into a belief.

He or she might adopt it for a number of reasons, but that is not belief.

That is why religions push faith, not belief.

Yes, religions were spread by the sword.

It began as a two edged sword of debate and discussion and seeking the best rules and laws to live by, then Christianity turned to inquisitions and force instead of moral arguments to persuade.

Most atheists say they are spiritual. No religion is required to be so.

In fact, a religion is likely a hinderance to spiritual thinking.

Regards
DL
To semantics, again.................what does 'spiritual thinking' entail? 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Greatest I am

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
To semantics, again.................what does 'spiritual thinking' entail? 

IDK.

Most atheists and other non-believers say they are spiritual and not religious.

Let me speculate that harm reduction seems to be an atheist forte, if Laïcité and atheist churches continues to be what non-believers advocate.

If so, I hope atheists and other people with a decent ideology will continue these trends.

Regards
DL


Mike Cl

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 01:04:01 PM
IDK.

Most atheists and other non-believers say they are spiritual and not religious.

Let me speculate that harm reduction seems to be an atheist forte, if Laïcité and atheist churches continues to be what non-believers advocate.

If so, I hope atheists and other people with a decent ideology will continue these trends.

Regards
DL
IDK either.  I tend to think that each person defines it as they see it.  So, to say that humans have been spiritual from the beginning is to say nothing, really.  I used to say that I was spiritual and not religious.  I do not like organized religions for I think they are destructive on many levels.  I no longer claim to be spiritual because it is a rather meaningless thing to claim. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

aitm

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 11:42:27 AM
I do not think a person can be forced into a belief.


Children......children have been indoctrinated into religion for 2000 years. Mom and Dad believe it, must be true. Ever hear of Santa Claus? As there has never been a "hard push" to "clean" their minds they still believe. Thats how it works.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Greatest I am

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 01:28:54 PM
IDK either.  I tend to think that each person defines it as they see it.  So, to say that humans have been spiritual from the beginning is to say nothing, really.  I used to say that I was spiritual and not religious.  I do not like organized religions for I think they are destructive on many levels.  I no longer claim to be spiritual because it is a rather meaningless thing to claim. 

It mostly means that you are one of the 96% of us who thinks in a material dualism way. Body/Soul.

I am with you on organized religions to a point. Too top heavy and rich.

I do not mind local churches as they are still doing good social work.

They will go as modernization and secular social services take the slack.

Most stay affiliated just for a place to be traditionally buried.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

Quote from: aitm on January 10, 2022, 03:22:53 PM
Children......children have been indoctrinated into religion for 2000 years. Mom and Dad believe it, must be true. Ever hear of Santa Claus? As there has never been a "hard push" to "clean" their minds they still believe. Thats how it works.

I share your dislike of indoctrination.

You focused on children, but that indoctrination is just as potent to the insecure religious mind that care nothing of morals and ethics.

Why do you think their God is a genocidal prick?

I see that selection in our religious nations more troubling than the ongoing indoctrination of children.

Not to mention their preaching homophobia and misogyny against the law of the land that preaches for equality.

Regards
DL