Getting women (&men) to call themselves feminist

[Smartmarzipan]

Mostly I've just faced a lot of sexual harassment throughout my life. I was also molested at a party and later told it was my fault.

My opinions have been overlooked and ignored before simply because I am female. (One particular incident stands out when someone came to inquire about Camaro Z28). I have been told that women are not good at certain jobs, like anything that requires math and science. I have been demeaned countless times for being a female. I can't drive, go make a sandwich, I'm too emotional, I'm too prudish, I dress too slutty, you're selfish and weird for not wanting children, women are only interested in money, you were asking for it, etc.

All of this pales in comparison to what many other women across the world face daily, but yes, I've had to deal with my own little injustices my entire life because of my vagina. And all the little things really do pile up.

Are these examples of oppression? I was expecting to be told that when you started a job at the same time a guy did you started at a lower salary, or you had more experience than a guy and he got the promotion. Or that you were denied being allowed to do something because you were a woman. Even then there are going to be reasons that aren't oppression. Moslestation aside comments are one thing, they are comments. Everyone gets comments.

Gee, sorry my own personal experiences aren't "bad" enough.  

Although, there are other women our there who have had to face what you just described, which is why I'm part of the feminist movement.

What I am saying is equality is a nice term but I don't know if anyone knows what that means or actually wants it.

Well, I think there are plenty of people who know exactly what it means.

You might be good at math and science but are there lots of women wanting to go into those fields and are being kept out because they are women?

By over-bearing families? Absolutely. By a rogue employer who discriminates? That happens, too.

There is a difference between having comments directed at you about not being good at something and actually being denied the ability to do it.

Yes, I know the difference.

[surly74]

Gee, sorry my own personal experiences aren't "bad" enough.  

i'm looking for examples of oppression that you have gone through. every one has bad experiences.

Although, there are other women our there who have had to face what you just described, which is why I'm part of the feminist movement.

and what does the feminist movement want to do about it? gender pay gaps. what are the objectives to conqure that? otherwise it just sounds like a movement similar to the ID movement. or is it making women get paid the same amount as men? again, this is a merit based system.

Well, I think there are plenty of people who know exactly what it means.

people think that. men and women are not equal. there are things that men can do that women can't, there are things that women do that men can't. not equal does not mean one is better but men and women are not the same.

By over-bearing families? Absolutely. By a rogue employer who discriminates? That happens, too.

to you? that's what i was asking for. how have you been a victim of employment discrimination? How was it discrimination? That's odd because my wife had a job interview last night where the 10 people interviewed were women. is it discrimination or were there no qualified male candidates? This is always a fun area, someone doesn't get their way so it must have been discrimination.

There is a difference between having comments directed at you about not being good at something and actually being denied the ability to do it.

Yes, I know the difference.

and the difference isn't oppression.

[Smartmarzipan]

Gee, sorry my own personal experiences aren't "bad" enough.  

i'm looking for examples of oppression that you have gone through. every one has bad experiences.

I have never been "oppressed" as a woman. But many women across the globe have been, and I am empathetic to their cause because had I been born in their place, the same would have happened to me.

Although, there are other women our there who have had to face what you just described, which is why I'm part of the feminist movement.

and what does the feminist movement want to do about it? gender pay gaps. what are the objectives to conqure that? otherwise it just sounds like a movement similar to the ID movement. or is it making women get paid the same amount as men? again, this is a merit based system.

The feminist movement is FAR larger than just wage discrepancy.

Well, I think there are plenty of people who know exactly what it means.

people think that. men and women are not equal. there are things that men can do that women can't, there are things that women do that men can't. not equal does not mean one is better but men and women are not the same.

Being treated equally in society and be given the same opportunities as everyone else has nothing to do with our biological differences. Everyone should be treated equally. Just because we are not biologically the same does not mean we don't know that we want equality in society for all people.

By over-bearing families? Absolutely. By a rogue employer who discriminates? That happens, too.

to you? that's what i was asking for.

No, not to me. Does that even matter?

how have you been a victim of employment discrimination? How was it discrimination? That's odd because my wife had a job interview last night where the 10 people interviewed were women. is it discrimination or were there no qualified male candidates? This is always a fun area, someone doesn't get their way so it must have been discrimination.

I think you're making assumptions here.  

There is a difference between having comments directed at you about not being good at something and actually being denied the ability to do it.

Yes, I know the difference.

and the difference isn't oppression.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I know the difference between having discriminatory and demeaning comments made towards me and being denied opportunities. I have never personally been denied an opportunity to do something (to my knowledge) because of my gender, and I said as much. But I am not every woman, and many women across the world have had to deal with discrimination and oppression, which is why I'm a part of the cause to end it.

Does that clarify things for you?

[La Dolce Vita]

people think that. men and women are not equal. there are things that men can do that women can't, there are things that women do that men can't. not equal does not mean one is better but men and women are not the same.

Being treated equally in society and be given the same opportunities as everyone else has nothing to do with our biological differences. Everyone should be treated equally. Just because we are not biologically the same does not mean we don't know that we want equality in society for all people.

^^This.

[Nonsensei]

Look, I'm getting tired of this "no true scotsman" thing a few of you are throwing around when I try to point out that generalizing femininsts is wrong, acting as if all feminists are the same and believe that the problems females face all arise from the same sources. The one thing we have in common is that we are trying to help women overcome unfair obstacles.

I feel like an atheist explaining to religious people that all atheists aren't baby-eating assholes.

Well to be blunt the number of feminists who see men as the enemy far outnumber atheist fetus consumers.

It just comes down to the fact that you aren't personally allowed to decide who is and is not a feminist. The primary reason that I think men don't jump on board the feminist movement is because of the sorts of feminists that see men as conspiratorial oppressive potential rapists. Anyone who says they know how many of these sorts of feminists there are in relation to the overall size of the feminist movement is full of shit.

As someone with a dick who has never hurt, abused, discriminated against, or otherwise been improperly negative toward any female ever, I am NOT signing onto a movement that has an unknown number of people in it that consider me the root of the problem. You can try to slice them out all you want, but that's a fairy tale. These people are real, and theres more than enough of them to be noticeable. Thats what someone who posted earlier meant by cleaning your house. Feminism as an entity needs to not only adopt a stance that doesn't alienate a specific gender, but also needs to make it clear that the "extremist fringes" of their own movement hold views that are absolutely not acceptable.

Until that time I will continue to support egalitarianism as it relates to gender issues.

[surly74]

I have never been "oppressed" as a woman. But many women across the globe have been, and I am empathetic to their cause because had I been born in their place, the same would have happened to me.

and that's fine but how do feminists affect change in other parts of the world where they aren't from? I'm not saying it's not noble to want to stand up with other women, how realistic is it? that's why i tried to keep to examples mainly in north america. Also complaining here that somewhere else is unjust is essentially useless.

The feminist movement is FAR larger than just wage discrepancy.

i know it is but is there a wage discrepancy in North America? Feminists would say there is but there are lots of reputable reports that is now a myth. I only picked wage gap as an example. The American Association of University Women now state that instead of a gap of 23 cents per it's at six cents per dollar and the AAUA is trying to determine if it's from discrimination.

What are the other main issues that are perceive to oppress women in NA?

Being treated equally in society and be given the same opportunities as everyone else has nothing to do with our biological differences. Everyone should be treated equally. Just because we are not biologically the same does not mean we don't know that we want equality in society for all people.

equal prison sentences? completely merit based achievements. same standards for physical jobs as men? eliminating female work place quotas? that type of equality? again, what opportunities do women in NA not have that men do?

No, not to me. Does that even matter?

i want to try and get a feel for how discriminated against women in North America are. you haven't experienced it but assert it's happened. I'm looking for examples as right now I don't automatically believe something is happening because someone says so. I can find lots of articles from legitimate sources that talk that how things used to be

how have you been a victim of employment discrimination? How was it discrimination? That's odd because my wife had a job interview last night where the 10 people interviewed were women. is it discrimination or were there no qualified male candidates? This is always a fun area, someone doesn't get their way so it must have been discrimination.

I think you're making assumptions here.  

no more than anyone else that says widespread oppression and discrimination happens in the US or Canada.

I know the difference between having discriminatory and demeaning comments made towards me and being denied opportunities. I have never personally been denied an opportunity to do something (to my knowledge) because of my gender, and I said as much. But I am not every woman, and many women across the world have had to deal with discrimination and oppression, which is why I'm a part of the cause to end it.

Does that clarify things for you?

first, i don't equate demeaning to automatically mean discriminatory when it comes to comments. The word is thrown around so much it's starting to lose meaning and really waters down people that are actually being discriminated against.

what does a world free of oppression look like?

[surly74]

people think that. men and women are not equal. there are things that men can do that women can't, there are things that women do that men can't. not equal does not mean one is better but men and women are not the same.

Being treated equally in society and be given the same opportunities as everyone else has nothing to do with our biological differences. Everyone should be treated equally. Just because we are not biologically the same does not mean we don't know that we want equality in society for all people.

^^This.

what does this equality look like?

[_Xenu_]

IMHO, feminism tends to be equated with militant man hating by a lot of people. Thats why most don't identify as such.

[La Dolce Vita]

what does this equality look like?

It's a fairly simple concept, no? I'm kinda stunned someone can't grasp "this equality". It means that people won't be forced into gender roles or not be allowed to reach their dream simply because they are of the wrong gender (or race, etnicity, etc.). True equality between the sexes is gender blind - but we got a long way to go there.

There are two types of quality we need to strive for:

1. Legal equality
2. Social equality

Legal equality between the sexes simply means that the law is gender blind. Which is essentially as simply as can be. Western country's are mostly quite close to this, though you'll probably be able to find sexist laws in all of these country's. (note that these laws easily can leave men as the losing party in the western world - if you need an incentive to fight for equality - how about more rights for yourself?)

Social equality is trickier. Unlike legal equality, which at least in theory can be fixed with a few penstrokes, the government can't force social behavior/norms - aside from outlawing harrashment, etc. Here we need societal change, and this is why we are currently in a transition period. Women are being more and more accepted in the work force, and we need the qoatas to create en envirement where women (and men) see that their gender can work there, does work there, etc. in other words, feel welcome and wanted. Equally it's becoming more and more accepted for men to be a caring parent. For there to be full equality what gender you happened to be born as should affect the life you want to lead as little as possible. The point of social gender equality is that women and men don't see limitations of what they can be because of their gender. There should also be the same level of acceptance and disapproval for actions/behaviors, regardless of your gender.

Note: The "feminist" state of Norway has quotas for men in professions primarily operated by women, this include psychology, and nurses studies too I believe. Like I stated above, the removal of patriarchy, and the closer we get to any sense of true equality, the better it is for men too. Depending on which culture you live in, as a man you might gain as much, if not more, on equality. The only thing you potentially can lose, as a man, is the right or heightened possibility to subjugate and oppress women - and as I don't believe you are doing that - you can only gain.

[Plu]

Note: The "feminist" state of Norway has quotas for men in professions primarily operated by women, this include psychology, and nurses studies too I believe.

This doesn't sound like progress to me. Nor does the opposite. If people don't want to do something, why should we aim to get them to do it anyway? And if someone else is better at it, why should we forgo them and instead hire another because they happen to be of a different gender?

This is mostly on social equality I guess. Like you said, you can't force them. But this is an example of still trying to do just that.

[La Dolce Vita]

Note: The "feminist" state of Norway has quotas for men in professions primarily operated by women, this include psychology, and nurses studies too I believe.

This doesn't sound like progress to me. Nor does the opposite. If people don't want to do something, why should we aim to get them to do it anyway? And if someone else is better at it, why should we forgo them and instead hire another because they happen to be of a different gender?

This is mostly on social equality I guess. Like you said, you can't force them. But this is an example of still trying to do just that.

I thought I explained why quite clearly above. It's the cultural push needed. It's a neccesary evil. This is done to open the gates and to make these professions desireable for a gender that before was underrepresented. It's not equality if there are social stigmas, dogmas and views on what's a profession for a man and what's a profession for a woman. When you're a child you should know that essentially all paths in life are open. As you're a man I'll use an issue for men to demonstrate my point. Isn't it wrong that men who have children (in most country's) won't even comtemplate the possibility of them being the primary parent, be it taking out paternity leave or even being a stay at home that. This is not a path in life that seems viable for men. Equally their are choices in the professional world that just doesn't seem viable to a lot of women. However, if we did demonstrate that they were viable for them, and a natural life path to take more women are likely to take up an interest/take this path, and then you'd get more qualified personell as you'd get the best from both genders, rather than just one. It's fairly easy.

Also, as society isn't (currently) gender blind there are occupations that need a fair balance between men and women. For example, if you need psychological help there are certain issues someone might be a lot less willing or comfortable with discussing with the opposite gender. In the police this is also highly important for frisking, etc. Many people are not comfortable with the opposite sex touching them in such a matter. Not to mention sensitive cases such as rape.

[WitchSabrina]

How to Get More Women (and Men) to Call Themselves Feminists
Focus on injustice, poverty, and women in parts of the world beyond the United States.
http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archiv ... ts/277179/

When asked "Are you a feminist?" most Americans say no. A recent Huffington Post/YouGov poll is typical: Only 23 percent of women and 16 percent of men identified as "feminist." Accomplished women as diverse as Taylor Swift, Sandra Day O'Connor, Marissa Mayer, and Beyoncé object to the designation.

The emancipation of women is one of the glories of Western civilization and one of the great chapters in the history of freedom. Why is the term that describes that heritage in such disrepute?

Some will say the movement is receding because it has achieved its essential goals. So why not let it fade from the scene? That is an understandable but mistaken conclusion. Though the major battles for equality and opportunity in the United States have been fought and largely won, the work of feminism remains unfinished. Across the globe, fledgling women's groups struggle to survive in the face of genuine and often violent oppression.

Who needs feminism? We do. The world does. But an effective women's movement needs to be rescued from its current outcast state. Anyone who cares about improving the status of women around the world should be working to create a women's movement that resonates with women. A reality-based, male-respecting, judicious feminism could greatly help women both in the United States and throughout the world. I call it "freedom feminism."

Freedom feminism stands for the moral, social, and legal equality of the sexes--and the freedom of women to employ their equal status to pursue happiness in their own distinctive ways. Freedom feminism is not at war with femininity or masculinity and it does not view men and women as opposing tribes. Theories of universal patriarchal oppression are not in its founding tablets. Nor are partisan litmus tests: It welcomes women and men from across the political spectrum. Put simply, freedom feminism affirms for women what it affirms for everyone: dignity, fairness, and personal liberty.

History suggests women fare the best when the two movements--progressive and conservative--work together. What do we have today? In the eyes of many, the current women's movement has devolved into a narrow, left-of-center special interest group. The majority of women have been left behind.

Freedom feminism combines aspects of both the egalitarian and maternal traditions. It shares with egalitarianism an aversion to prescribed gender roles: Women should be free to defect from the stereotypes of femininity if they so choose. At the same time, it respects the choices of free and self-determining women when they choose to embrace conventional feminine roles. Freedom feminism stands for equality of opportunity but does not insist on equality of results.

Women are various. Despite several decades of warnings and denunciations of traditional gender roles, domestic life remains a vital priority for millions of women. And no amount of cajoling has discouraged women from pursuing pink-collar jobs in the helping and caring professions. Although British comedic writer Caitlin Moran calls herself a "strident feminist," many passages in her funny book How to be a Woman capture the spirit of freedom feminism. What is feminism? she asks. "Simply the belief that women should be as free as men, however nuts, dim, deluded, badly dressed, fat, receding, lazy, and smug they might be."

How would the women's movement change if freedom feminism were its guiding philosophy?

First, gender gaps in wages, political leadership, and the professions would not automatically be taken as proof of discrimination. Freedom feminists allow that there could be innocent explanations for disparities. Instead, its focus would be on genuine injustice.

My advice to today's young women: Reform feminism. Give moderate and conservative women a voice. Most of all, make common cause with women across the globe who are struggling for their basic freedoms. Supporting truly oppressed women would give today's Western feminism something it has lacked for many years: a contemporary purpose worthy of its illustrious past.

This has always been my idea of feminism, and so it pains me to hear "femi-nazi" and other words like that throw around when I say I'm a feminist. It bothers me when people say we need a new name because feminist is such a dirty word. It's not. We all just need to work together.

Very.   Much.   Agreed.  
Much!

[Plu]

I thought I explained why quite clearly above. It's the cultural push needed.

Perhaps. Although I wonder how well this kind of forced push works. Forcing people to hire men/women because of law doesn't exactly sound like the proper kind of motivation.
Especially if the reason that this rule is needed is because there aren't enough people of that gender looking for the job instead of them being actively denied/discriminated against.

I mean; it might be that we don't have a lot of male daycareleaders because of discrimination. It might also just be that men don't want the job. Forcing men to be hired that aren't really qualified just because they figured "hey if I do this, they kinda have to hire me" and there's a law saying you must hire at least 1 man per 3 women doesn't give off the proper kind of social vibe I think.

So yeah; it's wrong that at many kids don't realise men can be daycare leaders and women can be firemen. But saying "But you can become a firemen now Suzy, because the government forces firedepartments to hire them" isn't really going to change that for the better. I'd rather see a big social awareness campaign over a law that you must hire a number of people of each gender.

The first can be used to say "the genders are the same and anyone can do the job they love". The second one tells me "The genders aren't the same, but we're going to force you to hire the inferior one as well because of equality."
At least to me, that's what I interpret when I hear those rules. And I don't think that's the proper message.

[surly74]

It's a fairly simple concept, no? I'm kinda stunned someone can't grasp "this equality". It means that people won't be forced into gender roles or not be allowed to reach their dream simply because they are of the wrong gender (or race, etnicity, etc.). True equality between the sexes is gender blind - but we got a long way to go there.

listen, i'm not getting snarky with anyone so no need here.  I have my own vision and I want to know what yours was to see if i'm on the same page and if there are differences. This thread has gone five pages with respectful discussion because people have refrained from insulting.

when i say "what does equality look like" i ask that because I'm talking one or two countries and everyone else is talking world wide...or it seems to be. how do you force other countries to treat women equal if they don't want to?

Legal equality between the sexes simply means that the law is gender blind. Which is essentially as simply as can be. Western country's are mostly quite close to this, though you'll probably be able to find sexist laws in all of these country's. (note that these laws easily can leave men as the losing party in the western world - if you need an incentive to fight for equality - how about more rights for yourself?)

this is interesting because the law looks much more favourably to women then it does to men. longer sentences for men for same crimes for example. In the UK women could retire earlier than men (not sure if still possible) and yet men die earlier. What about men getting a fair shake when it comes to custody of their children? When it comes to legal equality women would see alot of things change to their detrement.

Social equality is trickier. Unlike legal equality, which at least in theory can be fixed with a few penstrokes, the government can't force social behavior/norms - aside from outlawing harrashment, etc. Here we need societal change, and this is why we are currently in a transition period. Women are being more and more accepted in the work force, and we need the qoatas to create en envirement where women (and men) see that their gender can work there, does work there, etc. in other words, feel welcome and wanted. Equally it's becoming more and more accepted for men to be a caring parent. For there to be full equality what gender you happened to be born as should affect the life you want to lead as little as possible. The point of social gender equality is that women and men don't see limitations of what they can be because of their gender. There should also be the same level of acceptance and disapproval for actions/behaviors, regardless of your gender.

equality in the work place would remove quotas and be purely performance based. I don't know how anyone can say quotas provide equality because quotas only serve to handcuff one demographic. There are jobs that women are naturally (on average) going to be limited, physical jobs and yet we see standards lowered to encourage more women to enter those jobs at the punishment of men. Or if the standards aren't lowered then complaints that not enough women aren't in those jobs.

we dont't see enough women in, garbage collection, truck driving, high danger jobs. men are more likely to die on the job than a woman and that's because men work more dangerous jobs. lets get more women into those rolls instead of complaining there aren't enough women CEO's. Those that want to try and become a CEO have to face the same competition men do. That currently doesn't happen.

is it a coincidence that the vast vast majority of technical, scientific, medical, economical advancements have been made by men?

this is where equality gets tricky.

Note: The "feminist" state of Norway has quotas for men in professions primarily operated by women, this include psychology, and nurses studies too I believe. Like I stated above, the removal of patriarchy, and the closer we get to any sense of true equality, the better it is for men too. Depending on which culture you live in, as a man you might gain as much, if not more, on equality. The only thing you potentially can lose, as a man, is the right or heightened possibility to subjugate and oppress women - and as I don't believe you are doing that - you can only gain.

quotas aren't in place because people are being discriminated against, quotas are in place to encourage people who wouldn't normally go into a field because, typically they don't want to, thereby watering down the talent pool. do we need quotas to get more women into sciences? Are there lots of women trying to get into those programs and are being denied by men or is it for other reasons?

Are you saying that Norway is a feminist state and a patriarchy? is the US a patriarchy? if it was wouldn't women be doing the shittiest jobs and men would have the cushiest one? The law would be slanted to the male side. In the US have women ever been included in a military draft or have to register? Men have to.

women can kidnap their children to prevent their fathers from seeing them, imagine if a father did that. what would happen to him? Can a man just accuse a woman of something and have her go to prison? happens to men.

when cries for equality are made are there women asking for the draft registration to be changed to include women? are women asking for the laws to have equal sentencing? Are women, in an accusation of rape, saying "wait until the facts come out?".

[WitchSabrina]

Note: The "feminist" state of Norway has quotas for men in professions primarily operated by women, this include psychology, and nurses studies too I believe.

This doesn't sound like progress to me. Nor does the opposite. If people don't want to do something, why should we aim to get them to do it anyway? And if someone else is better at it, why should we forgo them and instead hire another because they happen to be of a different gender?

This is mostly on social equality I guess. Like you said, you can't force them. But this is an example of still trying to do just that.

Yeah - like back when people owned slaves.  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  Why did we bother to get them to see that that was wrong?  Because until social pressure/ explanation came about sooooo many thought owning slaves was just hunky dory.  You sure seem to advocate 'leave well enough alone' often..... aka just let people figure out for themselves without any influences?

Please explain how 'leave well enough alone' and avoid any influence helps anything.  I'd like some examples of serious social change for the better where someone did Not speak out nor set example.

'Leave well enough alone' is a church-thing if you ask me.  If the church had it's way we'd all still be in the 1400s.