Getting women (&men) to call themselves feminist

[Nonsensei]

The freedom feminism described in the article rejects patriarchy theory and supposes there might be a non-oppression related reason behind pay inequality and a number of other status related differences between the genders.

It also says:

Freedom feminists may well join their more progressive sisters in supporting initiatives to assist poverty-stricken single mothers; but the primary focus would be on combatting male-averse educational and social policies that have helped create a dysfunctional culture of fatherlessness.

I'm not 100% sure what is meant by that, but I assume its talking about how a man can't get single custody of a child in the United States if the mother still has a pulse and other similar issues?

Honestly this sort of viewpoint is what feminists often call male rights activism. You express these ideas, there are people who will call you an MRA (usually followed by some colorful adjective like "shitbag" or "rape supporter").

[Smartmarzipan]

The freedom feminism described in the article rejects patriarchy theory and supposes there might be a non-oppression related reason behind pay inequality and a number of other status related differences between the genders.

It also says:

Freedom feminists may well join their more progressive sisters in supporting initiatives to assist poverty-stricken single mothers; but the primary focus would be on combatting male-averse educational and social policies that have helped create a dysfunctional culture of fatherlessness.

I'm not 100% sure what is meant by that, but I assume its talking about how a man can't get single custody of a child in the United States if the mother still has a pulse and other similar issues?

Honestly this sort of viewpoint is what extremist feminists often call male rights activism. You express these ideas, there are people who will call you an MRA (usually followed by some colorful adjective like "shitbag" or "rape supporter").

FTFY

[surly74]

I'm not 100% sure what is meant by that, but I assume its talking about how a man can't get single custody of a child in the United States if the mother still has a pulse and other similar issues?

that's how i took it.

[the_antithesis]

I'm not much of a feminist, really. I'm more of a humanist.

[Smartmarzipan]

I'm not much of a feminist, really. I'm more of a humanist.

You're a misanthrope.  :-D

[the_antithesis]

I'm not much of a feminist, really. I'm more of a humanist.

You're a misanthrope.  :-D

A misanthropic humanist. I believe all people should be hated equally because they deserve it.

[surly74]

well...i just figured out what I am.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I agree its HBA and LDV re: egalitarianism. Everyone should be an egalitarian.

[Smartmarzipan]

though I feel more comfortable with the label atheist, than feminist because I think atheism does describe quite nicely how I feel about gods, whereas feminist doesn't because its women focused, and I am people focused. Egalitarian just sounds better to me. though I'll say again I know based on how many feminists use the term and see it, I fit the bill.

What is wrong with being women-focused, though?

We have gay rights movements which are focused on gay people.

We have minority movements focused on minorities.

We have child advocacy groups focused on children.

What is so wrong about a feminist movement focused on the specific problems of women?

I find it strange that I really only encounter this "I'm about people" attitude when talking about feminism.

Feminists constantly insist that the men's rights movement shouldn't exist

Some feminists. I think it's important to make that distinction.

because feminism will solve male gender based problems as well. If that's the case, then the name should reflect the idea of abolishing all gender discrimination. I agree that women bear the majority of the problems, but I think that's a bad reason to make it the headline, for the very reasons you espouse in the argument above.

I think we can all agree that when any oppressed minority does better, every one in society does better. That doesn't mean specific rights groups should change their names.

[Smartmarzipan]

I think what people in this thread are failing to understand is that it's called feminism because it's about specifically helping oppressed women. That doesn't mean feminists ignore men, or dominate them, or aren't empathetic to their role in women's lives. We know men are important, too. But the movement is about helping women get the opportunities denied to them simply because they are female. And that's why it's called feminism. That's the label.

What I'm concerned about it changing the bad image people have of feminism, not changing the name. There needs to be a reformation within the movement. Extremism needs to be weeded out, we need to work with more men, etc. And together we can all help women who are discriminated against in all parts of the world.

[Nonsensei]

The freedom feminism described in the article rejects patriarchy theory and supposes there might be a non-oppression related reason behind pay inequality and a number of other status related differences between the genders.

It also says:

Freedom feminists may well join their more progressive sisters in supporting initiatives to assist poverty-stricken single mothers; but the primary focus would be on combatting male-averse educational and social policies that have helped create a dysfunctional culture of fatherlessness.

I'm not 100% sure what is meant by that, but I assume its talking about how a man can't get single custody of a child in the United States if the mother still has a pulse and other similar issues?

Honestly this sort of viewpoint is what extremist feminists often call male rights activism. You express these ideas, there are people who will call you an MRA (usually followed by some colorful adjective like "shitbag" or "rape supporter").

FTFY

Ehm...nah. Thats perilously close to a no true scotsman argument. I admit calling someone an MRA shitbag is probably a reliable sign of an extremist, but there are plenty of non-extremist feminists who believe in the patriarchy, pay disparity is due to discrimination etc etc and will get fairly upset at anyone who challenges those long accepted presumptions.

Before you tear my penis off I should say I understand where the author of the article is coming from and I agree that it is probably a better way to achieve the goals of gender equality than what many would call the current disposition of feminism. Any philosophy for gender equality that doesn't directly or indirectly encourage women to look at men as adversaries is, in my opinion, more likely to succeed.

But the sort of accusations individuals get when expressing many of these same positions will also be leveled at this new form of feminism, which could be very divisive if taken seriously.

[Smartmarzipan]

Honestly this sort of viewpoint is what extremist feminists often call male rights activism. You express these ideas, there are people who will call you an MRA (usually followed by some colorful adjective like "shitbag" or "rape supporter").

FTFY

Ehm...nah. Thats perilously close to a no true scotsman argument. I admit calling someone an MRA shitbag is probably a reliable sign of an extremist, but there are plenty of non-extremist feminists who believe in the patriarchy, pay disparity is due to discrimination etc etc and will get fairly upset at anyone who challenges those long accepted presumptions.

I'm not sure what some feminists believing in pay discrimination and patriarchy has to do with extremists calling men "MRA shitbags". I'm confused why you're conflating the two since they are not mutually inclusive.

Before you tear my penis off

Really? Really?  :-|


Look, I'm getting tired of this "no true scotsman" thing a few of you are throwing around when I try to point out that generalizing femininsts is wrong, acting as if all feminists are the same and believe that the problems females face all arise from the same sources. The one thing we have in common is that we are trying to help women overcome unfair obstacles.

I feel like an atheist explaining to religious people that all atheists aren't baby-eating assholes.

[surly74]

Look, I'm getting tired of this "no true scotsman" thing a few of you are throwing around when I try to point out that generalizing femininsts is wrong, acting as if all feminists are the same and believe that the problems females face all arise from the same sources. The one thing we have in common is that we are trying to help women overcome unfair obstacles.

I feel like an atheist explaining to religious people that all atheists aren't baby-eating assholes.

you may have posted this somewhere but how have you personally been oppressed or faced unfair obstacles?

[Smartmarzipan]

Look, I'm getting tired of this "no true scotsman" thing a few of you are throwing around when I try to point out that generalizing femininsts is wrong, acting as if all feminists are the same and believe that the problems females face all arise from the same sources. The one thing we have in common is that we are trying to help women overcome unfair obstacles.

I feel like an atheist explaining to religious people that all atheists aren't baby-eating assholes.

you may have posted this somewhere but how have you personally been oppressed or faced unfair obstacles?

Mostly I've just faced a lot of sexual harassment throughout my life. I was also molested at a party and later told it was my fault.

My opinions have been overlooked and ignored before simply because I am female. (One particular incident stands out when someone came to inquire about Camaro Z28). I have been told that women are not good at certain jobs, like anything that requires math and science. I have been demeaned countless times for being a female. I can't drive, go make a sandwich, I'm too emotional, I'm too prudish, I dress too slutty, you're selfish and weird for not wanting children, women are only interested in money, you were asking for it, etc.

All of this pales in comparison to what many other women across the world face daily, but yes, I've had to deal with my own little injustices my entire life because of my vagina. And all the little things really do pile up.

[surly74]

Mostly I've just faced a lot of sexual harassment throughout my life. I was also molested at a party and later told it was my fault.

My opinions have been overlooked and ignored before simply because I am female. (One particular incident stands out when someone came to inquire about Camaro Z28). I have been told that women are not good at certain jobs, like anything that requires math and science. I have been demeaned countless times for being a female. I can't drive, go make a sandwich, I'm too emotional, I'm too prudish, I dress too slutty, you're selfish and weird for not wanting children, women are only interested in money, you were asking for it, etc.

All of this pales in comparison to what many other women across the world face daily, but yes, I've had to deal with my own little injustices my entire life because of my vagina. And all the little things really do pile up.

Are these examples of oppression? I was expecting to be told that when you started a job at the same time a guy did you started at a lower salary, or you had more experience than a guy and he got the promotion. Or that you were denied being allowed to do something because you were a woman. Even then there are going to be reasons that aren't oppression. Moslestation aside comments are one thing, they are comments. Everyone gets comments.

What I am saying is equality is a nice term but I don't know if anyone knows what that means or actually wants it. You might be good at math and science but are there lots of women wanting to go into those fields and are being kept out because they are women? I don't think it's a stretch to say that it's not, on average, something women get into. Like men that get into nursing, not traditionally a male role.

There is a difference between having comments directed at you about not being good at something and actually being denied the ability to do it.