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Catholic Church "Miracles"

Started by Paolo, December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

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aitm

Quote from: Paolo on February 02, 2021, 01:33:30 PM
Calm down, pal. I have just read your two posts. Now I have to think about them, before giving my reply.

I.e. talk to someone who has answers to these tough q's.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Mike Cl

Pliny the Younger

For two years the proconsul of Bythinia, a Roman-held province in Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger is best known for several letters he wrote to the Emperor Trajan around 112 CE that provide information on life at the time. One of them says this:

“[The Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god….”

Again, note the second criterion. This passage mentions nothing about a historical Jesus, nor does it vouch for the existence of any such person. It merely states that the Christians worshipped Christ, but this proves nothing, just as a verse about the Romans worshipping Zeus would not demonstrate that such a being existed. (Note too that “Christ” is a title, not a name.) This verse does not state that this Christ was ever on Earth â€" it does not even state that the Christians believed he was. Thus, it is entirely compatible with an early Christianity worshipping a spiritual Christ whose death and resurrection took place in Heaven; but even if not, one hundred years is more than enough time for legends about a historical man to take root.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

You did not list this guy, so I thought I would.
Phlegon

As we approach the end of the list, we encounter Phlegon of Tralles, a writer who lived sometime around 140 CE. Like Thallus, he is typically cited as a witness to the miraculous darkness around the time of the crucifixion; also like Thallus, his major works, the Chronicles and the Olympiads, have been lost, and the only way we know anything they said is through references made to them by later Christian commentators, such as Origen, Eusebius and Julius Africanus (who is himself lost and only preserved through quotes by another writer, George Syncellus, as previously mentioned). All of them reference Phlegon in support of the darkness. For example, Julius Africanus (as quoted by Syncellus) says the following:

“In fact, let it be so. Let the idea that this happened seize and carry away the multitude, and let the cosmic prodigy be counted as an eclipse of the sun according to its appearance. Phlegon reports that in the time of Tiberius Caesar, during the full moon, a full eclipse of the sun happened, from the sixth hour until the ninth. Clearly this is our eclipse!”

And Eusebius, the only one to quote Phlegon verbatim, has this to say:

“In fact, Phlegon, too, a distinguished reckoner of Olympiads, wrote more on these events in his 13th book, saying this: ‘Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [32 CE], a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea.'”

Of course, considerations of the third criterion intervene â€" Phlegon was, by all accounts, far too late to have witnessed any of these things personally. He cannot provide independent attestation of the darkness.

However, there is a far more serious consideration of the first criterion, one that bears directly on Phlegon’s credibility as a historian. He was not a Christian as far as we know, so there are no grounds to accuse him of inventing the story to support his own beliefs. However, it seems that Phlegon was particularly fond of fantastic and miraculous stories, regardless of their origin, and endorsed as fact many things that are impossible. His book On Marvels contains stories about things such as living centaurs, ghosts, men giving birth, a thousand-year-old Greek prophetess, oracles spoken by a corpse on a battlefield, and the animated, decapitated head of the Roman general Publius, which continued to speak even after his body was devoured by a great red wolf.

By the time Phlegon wrote, in the mid- to late second century, Christian mythology about the crucifixion would have become widely spread. It is highly likely that Phlegon, never averse to fantastic stories, picked up on these tales and uncritically repeated them. A writer so plainly unreliable, and in any case known to us only through hearsay by Christians who might well have put their own spin on what he wrote, cannot be regarded as useful historical testimony.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Unbeliever

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 24, 2021, 09:03:51 PM
Well, Paolo, you caught me on football playoff Sunday.  So, give me some time to answer.

Isn't it interesting when people claim to have evidence for their beliefs, and then don't present it? Reminds me of Trump and his cult, who claim to have evidence but then they don't present it. I wonder if they got that tactic from the same mindset?

"Let me claim to have evidence, and then claim that I've proven my case."

This is a common tactic of religious apologists, and is now being used by political apologists.

I'd be very interested in seeing the "evidence," but I think we've seen it all before, and we aren't likely to see anything new from this Paolo.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 02, 2021, 10:49:15 PM
Isn't it interesting when people claim to have evidence for their beliefs, and then don't present it? Reminds me of Trump and his cult, who claim to have evidence but then they don't present it. I wonder if they got that tactic from the same mindset?

"Let me claim to have evidence, and then claim that I've proven my case."

This is a common tactic of religious apologists, and is now being used by political apologists.

I'd be very interested in seeing the "evidence," but I think we've seen it all before, and we aren't likely to see anything new from this Paolo.
From what I've seen, the politicians who make that claim also claim to be christian.  It is common for the people who are religious use the 'all the scholars say....' without naming them or even doing a tiny bit of research to find those who don't say.  It is easier; and besides it is common sense..............
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Unbeliever

Do you really expect Paolo to read all that? I loved it, but damn, that's a lot to take in. I learned a hella lot from it - but will Paolo?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Paolo

Quote from: aitm on February 02, 2021, 07:20:48 PM
I.e. talk to someone who has answers to these tough q's.

So you DO admit that these questions HAVE answers, we only need to look out for the correct sources? How interesting!

@Mike -- tomorrow is my day off, so I should probably reply to you sooner this time!
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Cassia

Two kids on bicycles knocked on my door wearing short pants wearing white shirts, black ties and plastic helmets. They told me about a guy named Jesus.

Certainly this post of mine proves the existence of Jesus.

Paolo

Quote from: Cassia on February 03, 2021, 01:31:35 AM
Two kids on bicycles knocked on my door wearing short pants wearing white shirts, black ties and plastic helmets. They told me about a guy named Jesus.

Certainly this post of mine proves the existence of Jesus.


Personally, I think that only *proves* you have some sort of mental issue!

But that's only an uneducated guess, of course!
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Cassia

Quote from: Paolo on February 03, 2021, 07:52:28 AM
Personally, I think that only *proves* you have some sort of mental issue!

But that's only an uneducated guess, of course!
Yes, extremely uneducated and completely idiotic as well. Keep guessing !

Mike Cl

#220
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 02, 2021, 11:39:14 PM
Do you really expect Paolo to read all that? I loved it, but damn, that's a lot to take in. I learned a hella lot from it - but will Paolo?
Yes, it is quite a bit of info.  But this is a huge topic when you start doing actual research.  I tried to chunk it down to bite sized chunks.  And this is not even scratching the surface of this subject.  If Paolo wants to have a conversation about the subject (and not just blow smoke at it), then he needs to read and respond.  I have not fully answered his last big response to me yet.  Tune in later...............
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Paolo, 'But what sort of evidence do you want? ' 
Factual evidence.  The sort actual historians consider facts.  I don't want 'all scholars say' or 'traditionally this is what is accepted' or anything like it; that is opinion and not fact.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Paolo, you say: 'You miss the point that many SECULAR historians and of ALL RELIGIOUS PERSUASIONS, from hindus to atheists, think that there is enough evidence to believe in a historical Jesus-- or at least as much evidence for it as for other historical figures whose existence we normally take for granted. But more on that later.

And what makes you think Carrier, who is an outspoken atheist, is truly 'neutral'?'

I don't miss any point--you seem to be missing the point; 'many' secular historians' believe just about anything.  So what?  Which ones use facts and which ones use opinion?  Historians of All Religious Persuasions, from hindus to atheists--what does that even mean??  Atheists (you seem to have a hard time figuring out what that word means) are not religious--or anti-religious; they just don't believe in any gods nor anything 'supernatural'.  And not all religious historians believe or think Jesus was factual.  Those who believe in Jesus do take his existence 'for granted'.  And??????  Most religious people do not like nor seek facts nor reasonable thought or use critical thinking--so they accept what they are told by their leaders, who need them to believe so they can gain (maintain) power and money.

I don't claim that Carrier (nor any other historian secular or religious) is without bias; but he does take pains to examine all the facts and bases his findings on those facts, not opinions.  And he makes it clear in may places in his huge book that this is only the start--he is not the 'be all, end all' on this subject.  He begs religious scholars to take up his request they take him up on his challenge of showing him (the world, really) the 'facts' they base their findings on.  And then let's discuss it.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 25, 2021, 10:00:54 AM
Another element that smacks of no real Jesus;  the fact that his life and story occurred on one tiny spot on earth.  And not even in the largest population center at that time.  There were many mythical gods swirling around in that area of the world at that time, as well.  The same holds true for the bible.  If the bible were found in all areas of the world, that one fact would give me serious pause and I would probably be a believer.  I mean if one could go to Asia or South America, or Sweden, or Russia, or the Pacific Islands, or New Zealand and find bible dating from the same time frame, that would seem to be proof that the bible would be true.  Or if it was shown that Jesus visited those same areas, that would be further proof of his existence.  But that is not even close to being true.  One tiny area of the world??? For me it is clear this is the folklore of one small group of people; and it is clear this particular myth was created from an amalgam of the other myths swirling around in that area at that time.

(Paolo) Okay. Do you have any evidence for your copycat thesis?

What?  Because my thoughts are not totally unique and are taken from other people makes them invalid?  Really?  Isn't all types of thoughts and research based, at least a little, on others thoughts or research?  Humans gain knowledge by piggybacking on other peoples thoughts.  A person has a thought and shares it.  Others use that thought to expand up it (or debunk it) and thus gaining more info.  Nothing wrong with copycating others thoughts and ideas. 

Consider this.  You are starting up a company of selling products to the country.  You realize that advertising is necessary to get your product exposure and increase sales.  So you buy ads in the smallest population center of the area you are selling in.  Does that make sense?  Don't you want the most exposure you can get?  Would you not want ads to reach the entire world if possible?  Well, god created the universe and our world.  But he kept screwing up and making everything imperfect.  So, out of (seeming) frustration he caused Jesus to be born and he was to fix all of his mistakes and save the world.  So, he had Jesus born in one tiny area of the world, not very populated and speaking a language only a few spoke.  Is that good advertising?  It is especially odd that he could have instantly spread the word over the entire world and in the languages of every area of the world (remember, it is his fault that people speak different languages--the Tower of Babble)  in an instant.  That way, all peoples would then have knowledge of what was going on and why.  Do I have evidence of this?  Well, yeah.  The Bible was developed in one tiny area of the world and not anywhere else. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

drunkenshoe

#224
Mike didn't need the chair anymore. He was floating in air, a meter above the ground, and was grateful his wife didn't see the light on his face while typing...





:lol:
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp