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Astronomers - prophets of doom?

Started by Newtonian, March 21, 2020, 12:32:10 PM

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Newtonian

Not all astronomers - but most are prophets of doom - those of my religion believe earth will be paradise forever.

One example for starters:

While modern astronomers, in harmony with the Bible, teach our universe will remain forever, yet many of them believe that because of eternal expansion (Isaiah 40:22) our universe will suffer "heat death"  - that it will become cold.   They falsely teach all galaxies in the universe are expanding away from each other as part of this doomsday prophecy.

While it is true that most of the c. 100 billion galaxies in the Milky Way are receding from our galaxy- i.e. red shifter.

The truth is that some galaxies are heading either toward us or travelling together toward a Great Attractor, and still further heading for the Shapley supercluster even further away.   In fact, Milky Way is due to merge with Andromeda galaxy in about 5 billion years.

Our literature refers to the Great Attractor here:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101990412?q=Great+Attractor&p=par

Excerpt:

"Another structure is termed “the great attractor” because it is pulling so many galaxies, including our own, toward itself."

A more recent article:

https://www.universetoday.com/113150/what-is-the-great-attractor/

Excerpt:

"While the Norma Cluster is massive, and local galaxies are moving toward it, it doesn’t explain the full motion of local galaxies. The mass of the Great Attractor isn’t large enough to account for the pull. When we look at an even larger region of galaxies, we find that the local galaxies and the Great Attractor are moving toward something even larger. It’s known as the Shapley Supercluster. It contains more than 8000 galaxies and has a mass of more than ten million billion Suns. The Shapley Supercluster is, in fact, the most massive galaxy cluster within a billion light years, and we and every galaxy in our corner of the Universe are moving toward it."

So, opposite to what doomsday astronomers who is their models teach our galaxy is simply expanding into empty space and will suffer heat death - we are actually on a sort of 'river' in space towards the Great Attractor along with thousands of other galaxies and towards the even more massive Shapley supercluster.

But will we end up gravitationally bound or not?    The question relates to these Bible verses:

Job 38:31-33

Can you tie the ropes of the Kiʹmah constellation* Or untie the cords of the Keʹsil constellation?* 32 Can you lead out a constellation in its season Or guide the Ash constellation along with its sons?
33 Do you know the laws governing the heavens, Or can you impose their authority on the earth?

Thankfully, most of the laws of our universe have authority on earth for scientists to study.

Newton discovered the gravity which bound some stars - gravitationally bound.

But verse 31 implies some stars (and likely some galaxies) will be gravitational bound while others may break the cords of gravity.

So, how many galaxies will end up gravitationally bound to the above gravitational attractors?   Will Milkand waydrema? [the new form of Milky Way after the merger]?

For sure, Milky Way is not headed towards heat death!

But will our universe merge with another universe?  While in Genesis 1:1 earth is in singular, heavens is in plural in the original Hebrew.   And the Bible does not have any word that corresponds to the word "universe" with its singular prefix.

Newtonian

I should mention, in view of comments on other threads, that the above scientific journal referring to our "corner" of the universe does not mean our universe is flat (though it might be "flat)."

Its just a figure of speech like our referring to sunrise and sunset.

aitm

Oh please, the idiots of the babble thought the stars were no more than little specs in the sky..beneath even the clouds. That’s why they claim the sky could be rolled up like a scroll or that a dragon could fling a third of the stars to the earth. You have be seriously impaired to allow yourself to believe that bullshit unless you simply refuse the obvious words in favor of those who have since “interpreted” new meanings as the obvious written words were such bull shit.

Go back to your made up fantasy and your like minded simpletons. You won’t win any arguments here by making up shit.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Newtonian

Aitm - So, then how did Moses know the earth is hung upon nothing in empty space?(Job 26:7)  Or that the terminator was a circle? (Job 26:10)  How did Isaiah know earth was round, not flat? (Isaiah 40:22).

Of course, People of that time, including Bible writers, did not know these things.   In fact this is proof that while humans wrote Bible books over a period of c. 1600 years, nonetheless it was Jehovah who was the author.   The author knew whether the writers knew or not.

Some reason you are ignoring the scientific evidence I posted?   Do you believe in the existence of the Great Attractor?

And what of Job 38:33 - how did they know the universe is governed by laws?

Btw - my user name is based on a scientist/Bible researcher who learned and taught about gravity.

But did Isaiah 40:26 refer to plural forms of God's dynamic energy?  [Note: Hebrew ohnim is plural when referring to God's energy - and God is invisible so it should come as no surprise that this would include invisible forms of energy like gravity and dark energy.]

trdsf

Speaking as an (amateur) astronomer, we are not prophets.  We are scientists.  Prophets make shit up; scientist measure what is and make calculations and projections based on real data and the real world.

You're also mistaking local gravitational effects for the overall expansion of the universe.  Yes, Andromeda and the Milky Way are on a collision course.  That's a local (couple million light years) gravitational effect.

Let me offer the following.  It's a half hour long, so it's up to you whether you want to actually watch all of it or not.  Please note several points.

One: Scientific speculation is labeled exactly that.  Science knows where it cannot say "this is", and that in most cases it must say "this is what we expect based upon our current understanding".

Two: Science knows that all knowledge is provisional, and that if you have an anomalous observation, you need to either verify the observation, or correct the theory, not carry on regardless.  One may progress based upon hypothesis, but -- as the video points out in multiple places -- hypothesis isn't knowledge and our understanding of the present and expectation of the future may change.

Three: Science doesn't just make things up.  There must be an observation, or a strong theoretical reason.  Dark matter and dark energy aren't madey-uppy things.  They're called that because we measured a phenomenon that we cannot currently explain and verified that was a correct measurement, and those are the placeholder names while we try to figure out what they actually are.

As a final note, this: never once in the history of inquiry has the final, verified answer to how a phenomenon works been "goddidit".  Doesn't mean it's impossible in the future, but the track record for that particular answer is not good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD4izuDMUQA
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Newtonian

Hmmm - lost my post!  To summarize: the following link demonstrates scientific models of both "heat death" and "cold death" of our universe but these normally ignore the law of conservation of matter and energy (E=Mc^2).   See:

https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae181.cfm

What do you mean by local?   Thank you for admitting Milky Way will merge/collide with Andromeda.   That is local.

But the thousands of galaxies, including Milky Way, that are heading for the Shapley supercluster with its roughly 8,000 galaxies is not what I would consider local!  After all, the Shapley supercluster is about 1 billion light years from us!

Newtonian

trdsf - I was not denying the expansion of the universe, just disagreeing with heat &  cold death of our universe.

The Bible teaches the expansion (stretching out) of our universe by God:


Isaiah 40:22
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

22 There is One who dwells above the circle* of the earth,+
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.
He is stretching out the heavens like a fine gauze,
And he spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.+

Computer simulations of our universe look like a fine gauze, and astronomers even refer to the threads and filaments of our universe.

Goddidit is not a scientific answer - How God did it involves scientific research which provides answers (Romans 1:20).   Isaiah 40:26 refers to plural forms of God's energy involved with the very existence of stars - the Hebrew word ohnim is plural.   Since God is invisible it should come as no surprise that forms of energy involved with the expansion of our universe are also invisible - e.g. gravity and dark/invisible energy.

trdsf

Wow, so much wrongness there.  First of all, the sphericity of the Earth had been suggested by the 5th century BCE and confirmed in the 3rd century BCE.  Second, even absent knowledge of a spherical earth, if you've observed the Moon, you have a concept of a body hung in the sky for completely natural reasons.

Also, I notice you never bothered with all the factual inaccuracies in the bible -- and what answer you did give involved some pretty bizarre made-up bull.  There's no evidence for "belts of water" existing in the early solar system -- that's purest nonsense.  You want to claim they existed, you need to provide actual evidence for their existence.  And "Well, they could have!" is not evidence.

You can't ignore those if you want to claim biblical perfection.  That's cherry-picking.  If you want to claim biblical inerrancy, you need to deal with the incorrect order of creation, pi being exactly three, bats being birds, everything.

And you can't keep quoting the bible as your "evidence".  It's simply not.  You can believe it if you like, but if you want it accepted as fact, you need to demonstrate that independently.  Evidence stands or falls on its own merits and is its own authority.

The much simpler hypothesis, and much more plausible explanation, is that the various books of the modern Old and New Testaments were legends and stories written down by mortal men over a long period of time codifying a local set of myths.  Sometimes they got things right completely by accident (see Jonathan Swift and Voltaire "predicting" that Mars has two moons over a century before their discovery, or my own "prediction" of 2012 being the year the Higgs was definitively discovered), and a lot of the time they got things completely factually wrong.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

trdsf

Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 04:25:06 PM
trdsf - I was not denying the expansion of the universe, just disagreeing with heat &  cold death of our universe.

The Bible teaches the expansion (stretching out) of our universe by God:


Isaiah 40:22
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

22 There is One who dwells above the circle* of the earth,+
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.
He is stretching out the heavens like a fine gauze,
And he spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.+

Computer simulations of our universe look like a fine gauze, and astronomers even refer to the threads and filaments of our universe.

Goddidit is not a scientific answer - How God did it involves scientific research which provides answers (Romans 1:20).   Isaiah 40:26 refers to plural forms of God's energy involved with the very existence of stars - the Hebrew word ohnim is plural.   Since God is invisible it should come as no surprise that forms of energy involved with the expansion of our universe are also invisible - e.g. gravity and dark/invisible energy.
So what?  You're still pretending all the factually inaccurate stuff doesn't exist.  So a metaphor sounds a bit like the way we currently view the universe.  That's not evidence, considering how many factual errors are in the document besides the lucky guesses.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

aitm

Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 03:20:24 PM
Aitm - So, then how did Moses know the earth is hung upon nothing in empty space?(Job 26:7)  Or that the terminator was a circle? (Job 26:10)  How did Isaiah know earth was round, not flat? (Isaiah 40:22).

Of course, People of that time, including Bible writers, did not know these things.   In fact this is proof that while humans wrote Bible books over a period of c. 1600 years, nonetheless it was Jehovah who was the author.   The author knew whether the writers knew or not.

Some reason you are ignoring the scientific evidence I posted?   Do you believe in the existence of the Great Attractor?

And what of Job 38:33 - how did they know the universe is governed by laws?

Btw - my user name is based on a scientist/Bible researcher who learned and taught about gravity.

But did Isaiah 40:26 refer to plural forms of God's dynamic energy?  [Note: Hebrew ohnim is plural when referring to God's energy - and God is invisible so it should come as no surprise that this would include invisible forms of energy like gravity and dark energy.]
Ignore the words of the babble...present fanciful interpretations that have nothing to do with the scripture? Check.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hydra009

#10
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 12:32:10 PMThey falsely teach all galaxies in the universe are expanding away from each other as part of this doomsday prophecy.
Today I learned that facts are heresy and therefore not facts.

(note: not all galaxies are moving apart, some are even on course to collide - like the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy)

Newtonian

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 21, 2020, 05:56:11 PM
Today I learned that facts are heresy and therefore not facts.

(note: not all galaxies are moving apart, some are even on course to collide - like the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy)

I see you have a sense of humor!   Me too, btw.

All galaxies are moving apart, even those that are on course to collide!

I'll have to remember that one!

Hydra009

Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 07:17:29 PM
I see you have a sense of humor!   Me too, btw.

All galaxies are moving apart, even those that are on course to collide!

I'll have to remember that one!
Eppur si muove.  Hang on to that one, too.