A new perspective on this thing that we know as God.

[od19g6]

od19, you only talk about the physical manifestation of your god.  And how humans are different than animals.  I would suggest there is no difference between humans and other animals.  Some animals can and do build cities--and states--and countries.  Many animals (maybe most) have languages.  Some sacrifice themselves for the better of the whole.  Some render aid to others of their species for no known reason other than it is the right thing to do. 

You make statements and don't back them up.  I don't think your statements are correct.  As an atheist, I don't 'believe' in anything.  I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow.  I know it will rise tomorrow.  Why?  because, in fact, it does not 'rise'; the Earth is spinning while rotating around the sun, which makes it seem that the sun is rising.  Knowing that, I don't 'believe' the sun will rise--I know it will. And if it doesn't, then I will rethink my position.  So, you see, beliefs just don't exist in my world of reasoning and critical thinking.  I think something is right or something is wrong.  I will, and have, changed  my mind when shown proof that I was wrong. 

I don't see any reasoning in what you write.  You make statements with no proof, and expect me to simply buy into what you assert.  I reject as being wrong all of your statements.  You believe (is accepting a notion without the need of proof of any kind) god is---I think god is not and never was.  Why do you believe that?  (I suspect it is because it is so much easier to believe rather than look for proof and apply critical thinking)

That's fine, you're welcome to disagree.

Just to make it clear, I'm not here to try and so call convert someone, matter of fact I think it's impossible. It's up to the person to investigate the information.

I'm just here to kindly give my perspective and have a conversation with you all.

You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely know nor have physical evidence of God.

The only thing we got is the names and attributes manifested in the physical world. Everything revolves around that because that's all we know.

Remember animal can display the names and attributes of God as well. The thing is though that they can only display some of them and can only manifest them on a low level. It is only the human being that can display them to the highest.

This is all we have to work with in terms of God.

[Mike Cl]

Same as a groundhog?  Will you see your shadow on Groundhog Day, Mike CL? ;-)  People here are mostly sharks.  Some theists like to skinny dip in the shark tank (scene from Dr No).

I see you are making the usual amount of sense for you--zero. 

[Blackleaf]

They do not even have the ability to agree or disagree with the statement.
And that's because of the fact that they are lower from of life
And there are not on the level of the human being.

Actually, that depends on what animals we're talking about. Gorillas have been taught sign language, and have proven to be capable of much more complex thought than originally assumed. They are our distant cousins, after all, so it makes sense they'd have similar abilities to communicate through language.

Funny thing is when an ape is raised in captivity, they begin to associate themselves with humans instead of their own species. Try to unite them with others of their kind, and they're like, "Get this wild animal away from me!" And they're not far off, either. We and other apes are not very different. We just happened to evolve more intelligence than the rest, which kickstarted our dominance over nature. There's nothing divine about our attributes. We just have bigger, more efficient brains.

[Baruch]

I see you are making the usual amount of sense for you--zero.

OK ... so you are a killer whale ...

[SGOS]

Really to be honest until recently I haven't gone on forums much and I don't consider myself that good of a writer. I'm just a guy that loves this faith and I try to honestly convey it the best I can.

I love wilderness.  I love it as much as you love your faith.  We can have that pissing match later, but I simply love it more than anything.  I don't talk about it here, because wilderness has no more to do with atheism than your faith.  So the question about why you are here puzzles me.  I don't think you are telling the whole truth.  Your love of Jesus is no more relevant than my love of wild places.  I have no desire to go to one of the many Christian sites and hawk my love of wilderness, much less the fact that I am an atheist.  No one in a Christian forum would care.  I think you are here for reasons you are not disclosing, because loving your faith is quite irrelevant.  Good for you, I guess, but I'm not interested one bit.

[Mike Cl]

OK ... so you are a killer whale ...

Notice my avatar picture--that's what I am.

[Mike Cl]

That's fine, you're welcome to disagree.

Just to make it clear, I'm not here to try and so call convert someone, matter of fact I think it's impossible. It's up to the person to investigate the information.

I'm just here to kindly give my perspective and have a conversation with you all.

You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely known nor have physical evidence of God.

The only thing we got is the names and attributes manifested in the physical world. Everything revolves around that because that's all we know.

Remember animal can display the names and attributes of God as well. The thing is though that they can only display some of them and can only manifest them on a low level. It is only the human being that can display them to the highest.

This is all we have to work with in terms of God.

All your verbiage is great--but empty.  You say "You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely known nor have physical evidence of God."  This is the kind of statement you theists love to say.  But there is no there, there.  It's empty.  What does it mean?  How do you know we can never completely know god??  What in our world demonstrates that any god even exists?  If your god created the universe, would that not be physical evidence?  And if your god is outside the universe, what created your god?  Or the god that created your god; or the god that created the god that created your god????  What attributes of god can animals exhibit?  What are some of the attributes of your god, btw?????  What is the difference between demonstrating a low level of attributes and a high level?  How would one know?  Give me some substance to work with, not just empty air.

[trdsf]

You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely known nor have physical evidence of God.

Agreed, and this is why no one should be surprised that atheists do not believe any gods exist.

The only thing we got is the names and attributes manifested in the physical world. Everything revolves around that because that's all we know.

You realize that here you're asserting that your god for whom there is no "physical evidence" has a physical effect on the real world?  That means that if there would be physical evidence for its existence, if it existed.  You can't have it both ways.

If a god exists and has an effect on physical reality, that effect should be measurable and directly attributable to it and no other cause.

If a god exists and its effects on physical reality cannot be differentiated from natural causes, that cannot be differentiated from a state where no god exists.

Also, neither names nor attributes mean anything in an evidentiary way.  They're just labels we use to denote concepts, physical and otherwise.  Naming a thing does not give it physical reality, unless you wish to assert that centaurs and interstellar jump drives exist.  Having the attribute of being a perfect gas or being frictionless does not mean perfect gases and frictionless surfaces exist.

[Minimalist]

When my son survived an auto accident I did not thank god.  I thanked Honda.

--Author unknown

Gods are the leftover detritus of humanity's primitive origins.  They are no longer needed.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

You can't build a city.

You can't build a state.

You can't build a country, or an entire civilization.

So what are you going on about?

Is God only in the collectivity of humanity?

That actually has some plausibility.

[Mr.Obvious]

Well I'll put it like this.
We do believe in legitimate psychic faculties that a human being may have.
But usually things like telepathy come to the fore in the next world.

Alright then, I'll take it. We could go on for a long time otherwise, it seems.

Well this is not about being vocally superior. We already know that animals have superior vocal attributes. But the telepathy of the human being is far superior than the animal. We are the greatest and most perfect creation in terms of our telepathy. Even though physically we are animals as well, our telepathic abilities are far beyond the mere animal and we can manifest interthought-communication at the fullest.

Man, that took a while.

Your original message, which I tweeked here, makes just as much sense to me, given it's also purely asserted and asserts the existance of the spiritual reality just as much as telepathy.

[od19g6]

I've been waiting for days for you to tell us what names and attributes you're referring to. I get tired of being given the run around.

Hi.
I don't know did I ever catch your exact answer or not, but would you like the list of the names and attributes of God?

Yes or no?

[od19g6]

That's a contradiction in terms, another Catch-22 too.

You say we can't know god, yet you profess knowledge of a god. Can't you see how this contradiction makes any claim you later profess to know about it will nullify it?

Well, ultimately the knowledge and teachings comes form the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations. They are the Ones that are the supreme ambassadors of God and they're the Ones that brings divine education to the human being in every age.

[od19g6]

Actually, that depends on what animals we're talking about. Gorillas have been taught sign language, and have proven to be capable of much more complex thought than originally assumed. They are our distant cousins, after all, so it makes sense they'd have similar abilities to communicate through language.

Funny thing is when an ape is raised in captivity, they begin to associate themselves with humans instead of their own species. Try to unite them with others of their kind, and they're like, "Get this wild animal away from me!" And they're not far off, either. We and other apes are not very different. We just happened to evolve more intelligence than the rest, which kickstarted our dominance over nature. There's nothing divine about our attributes. We just have bigger, more efficient brains.

Well the key word you just said was "taught."
You have to understand that no really impressive "human like" thing that the animal does can ever be done unless the human being is teachings them. This is another case of the human being have dominion over the animal.

[Unbeliever]

Hi.
I don't know did I ever catch your exact answer or not, but would you like the list of the names and attributes of God?

Yes or no?

I couldn't care less, since you'll never make any more sense than you have so far, which is none at all. I'm not going to beg you to feed me bullshit.