The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments

[Unbeliever]

Sometimes I say to myself, "that'll do, Don Quixote."

[SGOS]

Well, when Balaam's ass was talking, Balaam didn't just say "That'll do, Donkey," like Shreck, instead he beat the poor thing nearly to death.

I'll tell you one thing.  I'll never take orders from a donkey.  They tell you anything, just to see if they can get you to do something stupid.

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, something stupid, like taking orders from a donkey! LOL

[Absolute_Agent]

Allow me to offer you a few trains of thought on the subject:

Premisis 1: God created humans to be good.
Premisis 2: 100% of humans are evil.
Conclusion: God failed, and his design was inherently flawed. A 100% failure rate is an absolute failure of a design.

Furthermore, if we're evil because we have free will, does God not have free will? If he does, what are the chances he would be the only one out of a countless number of people to be 100% good? Wouldn't it be much more reasonable to assume God, being a spirit with free will, would be just as evil as the rest of us?

Of course, if God is the one who gets to define what is good, then of course he is going to be the only good one. When you get to literally get away with murder because "I'm God," then calling yourself "good" is rather meaningless, isn't it?

Wow, very penetrating arguments--the best ones yet imo.  Thanks. 

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[Jagella]

God deliberately created us good but with the power of choice and the capability to choose evil.  When we chose evil we became less than perfect.  But this possibility was already planned for.  God actually wanted less than perfect beings to worship Him.  Why?  Did he need our worship?  No, He enjoys it though, and furthermore He knew, being Omniscient, that we would also enjoy it (immensely).  If you haven't believed in God yet you are like a seed waiting to sprout.  You have all the potential to flourish in the experience of God, it all hinges on your choice.  Shalom.

I understand what you're saying, but if God would seek worship to enjoy it, then he lacks something he might enjoy. If he lacks something he wants, then he couldn't be perfect.

If Christians would make their god imperfect, then their theology would be more logical.

[Hydra009]

Did he need our worship?  No, He enjoys it though

Careful.  You're on pretty shaky theological ground here.  Desire comes from want.  Does a god want?

and furthermore He knew, being Omniscient, that we would also enjoy it (immensely).

You know, I played a video game with that sort of psychology earlier.  A tribesman was captured by a cult.  At first, he resists fiercely.  After a time, he obeys the cult while inwardly hating it.  Later - in an extremely disturbing scene - he gives himself over to the cult and seems to derive great enjoyment in such subservience.

At which stage are you?

[Absolute_Agent]

Careful.  You're on pretty shaky theological ground here.  Desire comes from want.  Does a god want?
You know, I played a video game with that sort of psychology earlier.  A tribesman was captured by a cult.  At first, he resists fiercely.  After a time, he obeys the cult while inwardly hating it.  Later - in an extremely disturbing scene - he gives himself over to the cult and seems to derive great enjoyment in such subservience.

At which stage are you?

We're all slaves Hydra009.  Choose your master...

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[Absolute_Agent]

I understand what you're saying, but if God would seek worship to enjoy it, then he lacks something he might enjoy. If he lacks something he wants, then he couldn't be perfect.

If Christians would make their god imperfect, then their theology would be more logical.

If He had everything He desires, He would get bored, as there would be no thrill of anticipation, of development, or suspense.  He would then, being transcendent, decide to create an illusory time continuum which one part of His consciousness would enter, then sit back and savor the show as everything He already had in reality, gradually but inevitably blossoms into the fullness of glory.  Then He would say Himself "That was grand, let us do it again!" Each time there would be variations and He would also play with it a bit in real time as it's unfolding.   He would create infinitely expanding clusters of worlds and universes in which to enjoy this exquisite game.  And so Viola! Here we are...

Logically speaking that is.

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[Baruch]

Sometimes I say to myself, "that'll do, Don Quixote."

Sancho Panza shakes his head sadly, once again.

[Baruch]

Well I know that, and you know that, but somebody should tell the aliens!   LOL

Warp drive is invented by warped species.

[Baruch]

LOL. ole god also tells us in the babble that he threw a third of the stars to the earth...but hey... no logic or thinking involved there right? After all, those were really really really tiny stars......


LOLOL ...what a twit.

in the Bible, the stars are the angels.  The stars cast down are the fallen angels.

[Baruch]

Yeah, like a talking donkey! LOL

The donkey could see the angel, but Balaam could not.  Who was the ass?

[Baruch]

I think a talking bush is even more absurd, but I admit, a talking donkey is bound to be funnier.  I'd expect a donkey to make wise cracks.  I mean, he's a donkey after all, so I would think he must have a sense of humor.  A talking bush isn't that funny, especially if he's on fire.  I'd expect him to be hopping around going, "Ooo!  Ouch!  Yowee!"  But no, he's calming giving orders.  I just don't believe it would happen that way.

St Elmo's fire.  And as described by Elijah in a similar journey to Sinai ... a still small voice.  Someone standing right next to Moses, might not have seen or heard anything.  The desert gets strange at night.

[Baruch]

There is a verse in the OT as well and another in NT prior to Rev. if I recall. I always speak of the OT one because I know the Rev is the "dream"

Been to Patmos, where Rev was written.  I bet on psychoactive substances.

[Baruch]

If He had everything He desires, He would get bored, as there would be no thrill of anticipation, of development, or suspense.  He would then, being transcendent, decide to create an illusory time continuum which one part of His consciousness would enter, then sit back and savor the show as everything He already had in reality, gradually but inevitably blossoms into the fullness of glory.  Then He would say Himself "That was grand, let us do it again!" Each time there would be variations and He would also play with it a bit in real time as it's unfolding.   He would create infinitely expanding clusters of worlds and universes in which to enjoy this exquisite game.  And so Viola! Here we are...

Logically speaking that is.

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Each human being, animal etc is G-d playing hide-and-seek with G-d.  G-d is the only reality.