The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments

[SGOS]

From what I've read, it's not quite that simple...

That's what always bothered me.  It doesn't seem like it would be simple.  I never saw this explained in relation to a triangle as in the video, but what has bothered me is that the "c" in E=mc2 stands for "constant," or at least I was told this once, but in this case, the constant is the speed of light, which is not a constant.

And for reasons that are admittedly a little beyond me, it seems to make sense that mass and energy are related/convertible and it's reasonable that the speed of light is in the mix, since that's a fundamental constraint on the velocity of a particle.

I will accept that a relationship between the three exists, not because I know it, but because I have nothing of my own to offer, but can it be as simple as the expression implies?  I keep wondering if there isn't at the very minimum some added part to the expression, something like E=mc2 + 10 / 3.  Actually, I picture something much more complicated, but maybe that's enough to convey my thought.

Boiling it down into something that elegantly concise is - don't get me wrong, extremely clever and intelligent - but it is also something could be expected from people's innate desire for simplicity.

Yes.  Unwarranted or not, I'm bothered by the same suspicion. 

[Unbeliever]

It seems to me that if aliens can invent and use numbers then they aren't localized only in human minds, but must in some way exist independently of any minds, in order to be accessible to minds anywhere in the universe.

[Absolute_Agent]

What you seem to be getting at, is we all have our confirmation bias.

But here's the thing, while I can't speak for all atheists, I do not assume there is no god. My position is, that theists have failed to meet their burden of proof to convince me there is a god.

My default position is not, that there are no gods. My default position is, that I am unjustified to believe that gods exist.

Yes I get you--I think this is the most rational type of atheism possible.  You choose to accept only the reality conveyed by your intellect.  I view the intellect as a useful tool, but it's not the end all be all.  Reality is much more spontaneous and unpredictable than the intellect could handle on its own.

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[josephpalazzo]

It seems to me that if aliens can invent and use numbers then they aren't localized only in human minds, but must in some way exist independently of any minds, in order to be accessible to minds anywhere in the universe.

You can make the same argument with art. I'm sure intelligent aliens would have their own art. But art is subjective - a product of the human mind. The universe doesn't give a shit about art. Same thing with numbers.

As to the notion of localized, I have no idea what that supposed to mean. If you mean by being a monopoly of the human mind, then I'm quite confident that we do not have a monopoly on thinking, having ideas, create concepts. I mean that's the definition of intelligence. So if they are intelligent aliens by the very definition of intelligence, they are capable of doing what we can do - create a number system, an alphabet, art, philosophy, science, and so on....

[Unbeliever]

I expect aliens could find the concept of pi, and enumerate it in whatever system of numbers they use. But I seriously doubt they could ever reproduce, say, the Mona Lisa, or any other works of art humans have made.

[josephpalazzo]

I expect aliens could find the concept of pi, and enumerate it in whatever system of numbers they use. But I seriously doubt they could ever reproduce, say, the Mona Lisa, or any other works of art humans have made.

Well pi is a number derived from an observation. It's no different than measuring the acceleration due to gravity near the surface of the earth - 9.8 m/s². The universe simply doesn't care about these numbers: I don't think the universe is in a grips of anxiety to make it so that if I fall, I have to accelerate at that rate , or that the ratio of circumference/diameter of a circle is pi. It's convenient for us to do so - it opens the opportunity to do some algebraic manipulations. But those numbers are just so because we invented a number system. Suppose humans had never reached such advancements - we are simple cave people for as long as the earth exist incapable to create a number system or even an alphabet. Then these numbers never come into existence. It's what it is.

[Unbeliever]

Well, I'm not emotionally wedded to the idea of the primacy of number, it's just a philosophical position.

[josephpalazzo]

Well, I'm not emotionally wedded to the idea of the primacy of number, it's just a philosophical position.

Plato?

[Unbeliever]

Plato?

Nah, as Vizzini said to the Man in Black, he was a moran...


:-P

[Baruch]

It seems to me that if aliens can invent and use numbers then they aren't localized only in human minds, but must in some way exist independently of any minds, in order to be accessible to minds anywhere in the universe.

Pythagoras and Plato say so ... ommmm.  They weren't secular, they were cult leaders.  Kind of like the folks in San Diego waiting for the flying saucer.

[Baruch]

Do the numbers in computers exist in human minds?

Not in computer minds ;-)

[Baruch]

You've opened up a can of worms. Now you've got to explain the difference between the blue and the red pills.

Be a real druggie and take both!

[Baruch]

I personally think the universe is made from numbers, but that's just my bias.

Dr Max Tegmark I presume?

[Baruch]

Baruch might say that the red and green are qualia, which can't be explained.  :-P

No, red and green are human ideas, and per the peanut crowd, we can ignore them.  More accurately, they are a range of frequency/wavelength of EM spectrum, but nature didn't say that, people do.  EM theory is a more sophisticated model, it isn't "qualia".  Not even Standard Theory QFT is "qualia", again, just a more sophisticated ship in a bottle that you can't sail the seven seas in.

[Baruch]

If you open your computer you will find they don't exist there. What you have are switch on and off. Symbolically they are represented by 0's and 1's, by none other than the human mind who programs them. There are no such things as 1, 2, 3... in nature. These are purely symbols invented by the human mind, just like A, B, C...Blow the earth to smithereens and those numbers (and alphabet) cease to exist, unless there are other intelligent life somewhere in some far away galaxy... who can invent them, just like they would invent an alphabet of their own.

That is exactly what happens in CE3K.  Musical prime numbers.