The Logic of Atheists vs. Theist Arguments

[Cavebear]

Ten minutes can take forever to pass when anticipation is making you wait! LOL

I guess I'll wait...It will be 5 o clock somewhere later...

[Absolute_Agent]

This sounds an awful lot like confirmation bias to me.

Does everyone have to believe before they will be able to see god?

How would you explain Saul/Paul, who was a nonbeliever, then had an apparition of god? He did not believe, but god appeared to him.

Why was Paul worthy of a Damascus Road experience, but I am required to believe based on bad reasoning?

How would you explain many of the 1.5 billion Muslims, and 1.1 billion Hindus, that claim to have seen their god, also?

Exactly!

I was a sincere believer for decades. I never saw god.

God doesn't override the normal senses without a specific reason.  In the case of Paul he was destined to found Christianity, the pivotal player in reaching billions for Christ.  He needed extra fortification to carry out this enormous mission.  Us everyday folk have to work for our epiphanies.  Paul was a believer far prior to this, in fact he was a scholar and religious zealot.  It's not like he sat around waiting and one day randomly got "zapped" out of the blue.

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[Cavebear]

God doesn't override the normal senses without a specific reason.  In the case of Paul he was destined to found Christianity, the pivotal player in reaching billions for Christ.  He needed extra fortification to carry out this enormous mission.  Us everyday folk have to work for our epiphanies.  Paul was a believer far prior to this, in fact he was a scholar and religious zealot.  It's not like he sat around waiting and one day randomly got "zapped" out of the blue.

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I should probably leave this to the biblical researcher types here, but I found this on Wikipedia, and maybe it applies or not.  It surprised ME!

"Paul's conversion experience is discussed in both the Pauline epistles and in the Acts of the Apostles. According to both sources, Paul was not a follower of Jesus and did not know him before his crucifixion. Paul's conversion occurred after Jesus' crucifixion. "

[Simon Moon]

God doesn't override the normal senses without a specific reason.

How do you know this?

As far as I can tell, it is a completely unsupported assertion.

In the case of Paul he was destined to found Christianity, the pivotal player in reaching billions for Christ.

So, for those of us that find the entire story lacking evidence and logic, god didn't do such a good job appearing to Paul. Again, your god seems to value gullibility and credulity much more than critical thinking, evidence and logic.

He needed extra fortification to carry out this enormous mission.  Us everyday folk have to work for our epiphanies.

So, your god plays favorites. He makes his existence obvious for some, and makes others work for it.

First of all, it seems like an entirely unfair system, which to me is immoral.

I also find it interesting, that god had no problem making hi existence known, in obvious ways in the past, when people were ignorant, illiterate, barbaric, and superstitious, but as these things have improved, god makes his existence known through giving people feelings and impressions.

Paul was a believer far prior to this, in fact he was a scholar and religious zealot.  It's not like he sat around waiting and one day randomly got "zapped" out of the blue.

You are correct. I did not remember Christian mythology correctly. Thanks for correcting the story for me.

[Cavebear]

God doesn't override the normal senses without a specific reason.  In the case of Paul he was destined to found Christianity, the pivotal player in reaching billions for Christ.  He needed extra fortification to carry out this enormous mission.  Us everyday folk have to work for our epiphanies.  Paul was a believer far prior to this, in fact he was a scholar and religious zealot.  It's not like he sat around waiting and one day randomly got "zapped" out of the blue.

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Wikipedia disagrees with you on that last part.  Do you care?

[Hydra009]

This is the nature of God--He manifests as that which He is believed to be.  If you believe there is no God, you see no God.

It's almost like it's all in the mind.

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, almost...

[Baruch]

I should probably leave this to the biblical researcher types here, but I found this on Wikipedia, and maybe it applies or not.  It surprised ME!

"Paul's conversion experience is discussed in both the Pauline epistles and in the Acts of the Apostles. According to both sources, Paul was not a follower of Jesus and did not know him before his crucifixion. Paul's conversion occurred after Jesus' crucifixion. "

Yes.

[Baruch]

It's almost like it's all in the mind.

Yes.  But do atheists hate their own minds, or just everyone else's??  I think the latter.  Most of us here are pretty anti-social.

[Absolute_Agent]

This sounds an awful lot like confirmation bias to me.

No doubt.  What we believe literally shapes reality.  There is scientific evidence for this in the work of Dr. Bruce Lipton. https://www.brucelipton.com/about
So, you choose your reality.  You are the captain of your ship, it will go where you direct it.  If you don't want God, He will never force Himself into your awareness. 

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[Absolute_Agent]

Correct.  But can you go past knowledge to understanding?  Otherwise this is just delusion and wish fulfillment.  If I am an Arab trader, must I imagine the Godhead to be just like me, only better?  Yes, atheists are willfully blind but not necessarily consciously so.  Much of what we do is done without being conscious that we are doing it.

There has to be some nuance between an objective manifestation and a subjective one.  This is hard.  I don't claim to understand it.  Do you?

I don't fully understand your question.  Sounds like you're inviting me into a kabbalistic conversation, and I'm a mere novice in that area.  It has a way of levelling you--in the sense of throwing you on your face I mean.  Sufficient for me is the realization that understanding cannot be attained with the intellect--which is essentially like a sieve in functionality.  The first step to understanding is neutralizing the intellect's incessant chatter.

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[Absolute_Agent]

Now see, AA, Baruch knows it's just a word game.

@Baruch and I would agree that the universes are made of letters and words.

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[Absolute_Agent]

So, more of an art than a science, huh?

It's a blend of both.

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[Absolute_Agent]

If I was convinced I saw God, I would believe, but it doesn't work when I go backwards, because no matter how much I believe, I can never equate belief with knowledge.  Of course, as Cavebear pointed out, maybe you're not sincere enough in your belief.  Although he winked when he said that, and for good reason, since I've recognized that theist apology as bullshit since I was ten.

I can't measure anyone's sincerity.  But many are under the impression that belief is a passive intellectual assent.  In actuality, it is a struggle.  Like when you struggle to get that job, or that car or whatever you want--but more intense, and the struggle is within the self.  When you're on your knees pleading, begging, crying for guidance---that's when God shows up.   

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[SGOS]

many are under the impression that belief is a passive intellectual assent.  In actuality, it is a struggle.

I believed I could struggle my way to believing at one time.  But it turned out not to be true because the basic nature of belief is that believing does not make anything true.  Truth is independent of belief, desire, and need.  Although Donald Trump would disagree.