How many GODS do you have?

[Mr.Obvious]

Nihilism ain't that bad anyways.
I'm a nihilist and never let it hold me back.

[Munch]

heres my gods.






or just men built like greek gods.

[Baruch]

heres my gods.






or just men built like greek gods.

Mr Sorbo and Hercules?  Not bad if you are Spartan.  This Is England!

[Baruch]

Nihilism ain't that bad anyways.
I'm a nihilist and never let it hold me back.

I don't accept your self description.  You might as well claim you are post-human.  But carry on ...

[Baruch]

Personal experience can never be anything more than anecdotal evidence.  It can be blindingly convincing to the person experiencing it, but it is by definition utterly meaningless to anyone who has not had the exact same experience, and therefore is useless in any evidentiary manner.

Experimentsâ€"which are independently repeatable, with results that are independently verifiable (or not)â€"are always more powerful than any claim of personal enlightenment because they can demonstrate the probable truth, the definite falsity, and perhaps sometimes even the undecidability of a proposition to any independent observer's satisfaction.

Claiming that something has reality means you can demonstrate something's existence concretely and independently of opinion or belief.  I will without debate accept that you believe your god is real, but I reject your claim that your god is real.  You have a massive and unmet burden of proof laid upon your shoulders to make that statement, and saying 'you have to have faith' is an abdication of that responsibility.

I agree ... in that your existence, and not being a limited AI program, is questionable.

[Baruch]

Oh, please...

If you are unable to detect the difference between what religious leaders say; based on ancient texts, 'feelings', flawed arguments, poor evidence, etc, with the kinds of scientists say, based on verifiable, repeatable and falsifiable evidence, for their theories, then that's a big problem.

We rely on what scientists say, because, guess what? They are using a method that is reliable. Demonstrable, repeatable, and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic will beat whatever 'method' you or Arik are advocating, constantly.

Scientists do not speak in absolutes and certainty, unlike Catholic Priests. Scientists are capable of having their minds changes, if new evidence is presented, Catholic priests aren't. If you ever want to go hear some of the most humble people speak, go to a scientific conference. You will hear phrases like, "Others may know more than I do on this subject than I do", "These are our findings so far, if anyone has anything to add, please do", etc.

Ancient texts, 'feelings', flawed arguments, poor quality evidence, are not reliable. How could they be? They all lead to mutually exclusive beliefs. They lead Muslims to believe in Allah, Jews to believe in Yahweh, Christians to believe in Yeshua, Yogis to believe in NDE's, etc, etc.

The difference could not get any further. Just because you can't understand that others don't have a religious mindset like you have, doesn't mean we do have that mindset.

So, nice equivocation fallacy you have there.

You are projecting ... you are not a scientist, anymore than I am.  You have to trust some "expert".  Your ability to pick them is no better than mine.  It is like being a sports fan .. such that when your team makes a good play, it is as if you made a good play.  And if your team wins, it is as if you won.  People do this in all social situations.  Science isn't independent of psychology or sociology.  This isn't about epistemology.  It is about gullibility.

[Baruch]

There may be some atheists that think this way, but if so, they are most likely a small minority.

But to say "atheists are always proclaiming their god-hood, or at least as fan boys of particular scientists" is just plain wrong.

Please describe "complete skepticism", because that phrase does not really make sense to me.

When it comes to existential claims (gods, ghosts, bigfoot, supernatural, miracles, etc), I am extremely skeptical, always. I cannot understand the mindset that would allow one to believe in any of this category of claims, without requiring demonstrable and falsifiable evidence.

Am I a "complete skeptic", by your definition? If so, why have I not become a nihilist yet?

There are a few who have posted here in the last 4 years.  Egomaniacs.  Of course religious people are just as vulnerable to the full spectrum of the DSM-IV.

Epistemology is a red herring.  Just as logic is.  It isn't even clear, in reality, that "true"/"false" is even valid.

[Absolute_Agent]

Personal experience can never be anything more than anecdotal evidence.  It can be blindingly convincing to the person experiencing it, but it is by definition utterly meaningless to anyone who has not had the exact same experience, and therefore is useless in any evidentiary manner.

Experimentsâ€"which are independently repeatable, with results that are independently verifiable (or not)â€"are always more powerful than any claim of personal enlightenment because they can demonstrate the probable truth, the definite falsity, and perhaps sometimes even the undecidability of a proposition to any independent observer's satisfaction.

Scientists fail to see that there are certain assumptions they accept without question, because it feels completely true, indisputable--and yet those feelings are based on purely subjective reality.

Here is a simple repeatable experiment that proves the existence of God...

Proposal: God exists

Definition of God: Intelligent Omniscient Omnipotent Source of all material and non-material reality; a being existing primarily outside all perceived material reality, but capable of influencing, directing and even manifesting within perceived reality.

Method of Discovery: Prayer.  That is, speaking directly to Source in the manner of submitting requests and petitions. 

Results: Answers to prayers manifest to the supplicator in unique but unmistakable means, tailored to the individual's particular circumstances and disposition.  I have tested this method and received consistently positive results.

Suggested Prayer Format: (there is no set format but certain applications produce more noticeable results)

Prerequisite: take a bath, fully immersing in water, and dress in plain modest clothing.

1.  Enter a small enclosed quiet space where you are not seen and see no other person. A closet or attic are good examples.

2.  Place forehead on the floor with palms and knees touching the floor.

3. Say audibly but softly, "O God, most exalted and perfect, manifest Yourself to me in such a way that I will know You are real, and make me your righteous devotee."

4. Pause, clearing the mind of all thoughts in the manner of patiently waiting for instruction, for about a minute or two.

5.  Rise to a sitting position and wait another five minutes in silence and stillness.

This experiment will produce a variety of occurrences with the effect of manifesting the reality of God to anyone who performs it.  Daily repetition will increase the frequency and favorability of results.

Claiming that something has reality means you can demonstrate something's existence concretely and independently of opinion or belief.  I will without debate accept that you believe your god is real, but I reject your claim that your god is real.  You have a massive and unmet burden of proof laid upon your shoulders to make that statement, and saying 'you have to have faith' is an abdication of that responsibility.

I don't expect you to accept my claim without using your own means to ascertain the truth of it. I have laid out a method by which you and anyone can, if you wish, test the veracity of my claim.  It's not rocket science, and it's very easy and reliable.  Good luck.

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[Mike Cl]

Scientists fail to see that there are certain assumptions they accept without question, because it feels completely true, indisputable--and yet those feelings are based on purely subjective reality.

Here is a simple repeatable experiment that proves the existence of God...

Proposal: God exists

Definition of God: Intelligent Omniscient Omnipotent Source of all material and non-material reality; a being existing primarily outside all perceived material reality, but capable of influencing, directing and even manifesting within perceived reality.

Method of Discovery: Prayer.  That is, speaking directly to Source in the manner of submitting requests and petitions. 

Results: Answers to prayers manifest to the supplicator in unique but unmistakable means, tailored to the individual's particular circumstances and disposition.  I have tested this method and received consistently positive results.

Suggested Prayer Format: (there is no set format but certain applications produce more noticeable results)

Prerequisite: take a bath, fully immersing in water, and dress in plain modest clothing.

1.  Enter a small enclosed quiet space where you are not seen and see no other person. A closet or attic are good examples.

2.  Place forehead on the floor with palms and knees touching the floor.

3. Say audibly but softly, "O God, most exalted and perfect, manifest Yourself to me in such a way that I will know You are real, and make me your righteous devotee."

4. Pause, clearing the mind of all thoughts in the manner of patiently waiting for instruction, for about a minute or two.

5.  Rise to a sitting position and wait another five minutes in silence and stillness.

This experiment will produce a variety of occurrences with the effect of manifesting the reality of God to anyone who performs it.  Daily repetition will increase the frequency and favorability of results.
I don't expect you to accept my claim without using your own means to ascertain the truth of it. I have laid out a method by which you and anyone can, if you wish, test the veracity of my claim.  It's not rocket science, and it's very easy and reliable.  Good luck.

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This, like your religion and beliefs, is a crock of crap.  Clearly, you and your fictional god is simply folly.  Wishful believing--clearly you are a sad, sad little man.

[Hydra009]

Scientists fail to see that there are certain assumptions they accept without question, because it feels completely true, indisputable--and yet those feelings are based on purely subjective reality.

There actually are some starting assumptions with science, so you got that half right.  Uniformitarianism comes to mind.  All you have to do is prove that wrong and a nobel prize is yours for the taking...

Here is a simple repeatable experiment that proves the existence of God...

Oh, this is going to be rich.

Proposal: God exists

Proposal rejected due to vagueness

Definition of God: Intelligent Omniscient Omnipotent Source of all material and non-material reality; a being existing primarily outside all perceived material reality, but capable of influencing, directing and even manifesting within perceived reality.

Definition rests on several preconceived notions: that a non-material reality exists, that a being created this...somehow, that an entity exists outside of reality (how could anyone know that?), etc.

Method of Discovery: Prayer.  That is, speaking directly to Source in the manner of submitting requests and petitions.

First, it must be verified that "Source" is both listening to and responding to requests and that supplicant is one such person.  Otherwise, we just have someone talking to the floor, which is both hilarious and sad, and not exactly helping your case.

And would it kill ya to create a control group?  I know religious people aren't super up to date when it comes to science, but you guys do know what a control group is and why it's important, right?

Results: Answers to prayers manifest to the supplicator in unique but unmistakable means, tailored to the individual's particular circumstances and disposition.  I have tested this method and received consistently positive results.

Conclusion seems suspiciously similar to premises.

Suggested Prayer Format: (there is no set format but certain applications produce more noticeable results)

Prerequisite: take a bath, fully immersing in water, and dress in plain modest clothing.

Instructions unclear, summoned satan with a lacy thong.

I don't expect you to accept my claim without using your own means to ascertain the truth of it. I have laid out a method by which you and anyone can, if you wish, test the veracity of my claim.

And, wouldntcha know it, your method seems to work only for people who already believe it does (and believe a lot of other stuff besides)

[trdsf]

Scientists fail to see that there are certain assumptions they accept without question, because it feels completely true, indisputable--and yet those feelings are based on purely subjective reality.

Here is a simple repeatable experiment that proves the existence of God...

Proposal: God exists

Definition of God: Intelligent Omniscient Omnipotent Source of all material and non-material reality; a being existing primarily outside all perceived material reality, but capable of influencing, directing and even manifesting within perceived reality.

Method of Discovery: Prayer.  That is, speaking directly to Source in the manner of submitting requests and petitions.

Emphasis added.  Here's where your methodology fails.  Prayer has been studied.  It is of no efficacy whatsoever, especially with the apologetic that if you get what you want, your god willed it, and if you don't then your god works in mysterious ways.

Results: Answers to prayers manifest to the supplicator in unique but unmistakable means, tailored to the individual's particular circumstances and disposition.  I have tested this method and received consistently positive results.

Suggested Prayer Format: (there is no set format but certain applications produce more noticeable results)

Prerequisite: take a bath, fully immersing in water, and dress in plain modest clothing.

1.  Enter a small enclosed quiet space where you are not seen and see no other person. A closet or attic are good examples.

2.  Place forehead on the floor with palms and knees touching the floor.

3. Say audibly but softly, "O God, most exalted and perfect, manifest Yourself to me in such a way that I will know You are real, and make me your righteous devotee."

4. Pause, clearing the mind of all thoughts in the manner of patiently waiting for instruction, for about a minute or two.

5.  Rise to a sitting position and wait another five minutes in silence and stillness.

This experiment will produce a variety of occurrences with the effect of manifesting the reality of God to anyone who performs it.  Daily repetition will increase the frequency and favorability of results.
I don't expect you to accept my claim without using your own means to ascertain the truth of it. I have laid out a method by which you and anyone can, if you wish, test the veracity of my claim.  It's not rocket science, and it's very easy and reliable.  Good luck.

Rubbish.

In fact, I took a lovely and contemplative bath just this evening, lounging with lowered lights, candles, incense, an excellent book, and a lovely dry martini.  What I got out of it was I felt great for perfectly understandable and non-metaphysical reasons.

Any god that requires physical gyrations like that is no god, it's an asshole who wants to see how much stupid shit it can make people do.

I had an incredibly profound religious experience 35 years ago, in the aftermath of which I would have sworn upon any oath you wish that I had personally encountered the god and goddess of Wicca.  I spent the succeeding 20 years as quite a devout Wiccan.  At no time during those 20 years did I once ever have the arrogance to ask someone to take my word as evidence, only to accept that I accepted it for myself.  Do you know what I finally realized what that experience was?  I was giving myself permission to leave Catholicism.

Religious experiences come from within, and from nowhere else, and I have no reason to take any other explanation seriously until you can give me an explanation that doesn't depend on "feeling" or "intuition" or some bizarre calisthenics.  I'm sure as shit not climbing into the bath fully clothed.  There's a laundry room downstairs, I don't have to be that cheap.

[Mr.Obvious]

I don't accept your self description.  You might as well claim you are post-human.  But carry on ...

Or a demi god?
I don't really care that you don't accept it Baruch. I don't need you to. It does show the futility of arguing with you, though.

[Absolute_Agent]

Emphasis added.  Here's where your methodology fails.  Prayer has been studied.  It is of no efficacy whatsoever, especially with the apologetic that if you get what you want, your god willed it, and if you don't then your god works in mysterious ways.

The proposed outcome of the experiment is not that one will receive what one asks for every time, but evidence for the existence of God.  Every prayer will be answered, but not necessarily in the expected way.

In fact, I took a lovely and contemplative bath just this evening, lounging with lowered lights, candles, incense, an excellent book, and a lovely dry martini.  What I got out of it was I felt great for perfectly understandable and non-metaphysical reasons.

Feeling good is not the objective of practicing religion, as many including religious people often assume. 

I had an incredibly profound religious experience 35 years ago, in the aftermath of which I would have sworn upon any oath you wish that I had personally encountered the god and goddess of Wicca.  I spent the succeeding 20 years as quite a devout Wiccan.  At no time during those 20 years did I once ever have the arrogance to ask someone to take my word as evidence, only to accept that I accepted it for myself.  Do you know what I finally realized what that experience was?  I was giving myself permission to leave Catholicism.

Religious experiences come from within, and from nowhere else, and I have no reason to take any other explanation seriously until you can give me an explanation that doesn't depend on "feeling" or "intuition" or some bizarre calisthenics.  I'm sure as shit not climbing into the bath fully clothed.  There's a laundry room downstairs, I don't have to be that cheap.

You had a religious experience, but chose to discount its validity.  In doing so you denied the reality of your inner senses in favor of the reality presented by your physical sense organs.  The purpose of religion is to awaken the inner senses through which God can be perceived.   I don't ask you to take my word as evidence, I only explain how you might discover the evidence for yourself.  Religion is focused on that which is within the heart.  To deny what is within is to deny the most important part of who you are.  This is what we mean by being "lost".

Clarification on procedure: take a bath; and after bathing, dress in modest clothing.





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[Absolute_Agent]

There actually are some starting assumptions with science, so you got that half right.  Uniformitarianism comes to mind.  All you have to do is prove that wrong and a nobel prize is yours for the taking...

Uniformitarianism was proven false a while ago, along with the theory of gravity.

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[aitm]

 

Results: Answers to prayers manifest to the supplicator in unique but unmistakable means, tailored to the individual's particular circumstances and disposition.

30 billion dead would call you a liar if they could.

I have tested this method and received consistently positive results.

Bullshit. I can fly and do it every day simply by wanting to. Top that liar.