Very quick rundown why Zen is a kind of psychology ...

Started by Baruch, April 19, 2019, 09:21:41 PM

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Baruch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozWiUA-GCk

Basically, it involves making things as simple as possible, but no simpler (paraphrase of Einstein).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

What I needed to hear, here & now ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIZErkuSHR0

You don't need to go on living, or go on dying, you simply need to let go of illusion.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

drunkenshoe

Would you like to get into why theism is a kind of pyschology? I mean speaking of letting go of illusions... :*
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 20, 2019, 05:15:48 AM
Would you like to get into why theism is a kind of pyschology? I mean speaking of letting go of illusions... :*

How about ... why psychology is a kind of theism?  For me, those questions are symmetrical ;-)  I have posted many times that psychology is the best way to understand what needs to be understood (and it isn't more stuff about the Higgs boson or black holes).

The primary thing that humans need to study is humanity.  And the primary ideology for humans, that isn't self destructive, is humanism.  Humanism without artificial constraint (secular humanism), where both the objective (relatively) and the subjective are accounted for, rather than dismissed.  Epistemologically open, and empirical, rather than ideological or rational (assuming reality is rational is going to far, that is an ideology itself).  The alternative is more in-humanism, more WMD (including biological weapons), more Oppenheimers claiming to be Krishna.

Physics won't help people understand human beings.  It isn't a humanity, it is an inhumanity.  Philosophy (aka Greek rationality usually) is also too ideological.  The Chinese and Indians did plenty of psychological work without being within the Western cultural zone (because they are human too).  I always gain new insight into myself and other people by being open to Eastern cultures, rather than approaching them like Rudyard Kipling.

We in the West have created artificial dichotomies between objective and subjective, between theism and atheism ... these are all false dichotomies.  But if you say ... not ... that proposition A is true or not ... but does person X believe proposition A and why do they believe it ... then the door to understanding people is open.  The problem with most rationalists or naturalists (who exclude people from nature) is that they are a variant of humanity.  Even Asperger types.  High functional autistic males are mostly who have produced math and science.  Otherwise they would have been musicians etc.  Einstein himself was an idiot savant.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Sal1981

What is your opinion of mindfulness? Sam Harris said, paraphrasing, that it is meditation decoupled from buddhism. All the effects of meditation without the theistic baggage.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Baruch on April 20, 2019, 11:17:36 AM
How about ... why psychology is a kind of theism?  For me, those questions are symmetrical ;-)  I have posted many times that psychology is the best way to understand what needs to be understood (and it isn't more stuff about the Higgs boson or black holes).

The primary thing that humans need to study is humanity.  And the primary ideology for humans, that isn't self destructive, is humanism.  Humanism without artificial constraint (secular humanism), where both the objective (relatively) and the subjective are accounted for, rather than dismissed.  Epistemologically open, and empirical, rather than ideological or rational (assuming reality is rational is going to far, that is an ideology itself).  The alternative is more in-humanism, more WMD (including biological weapons), more Oppenheimers claiming to be Krishna.

Physics won't help people understand human beings.  It isn't a humanity, it is an inhumanity.  Philosophy (aka Greek rationality usually) is also too ideological.  The Chinese and Indians did plenty of psychological work without being within the Western cultural zone (because they are human too).  I always gain new insight into myself and other people by being open to Eastern cultures, rather than approaching them like Rudyard Kipling.

We in the West have created artificial dichotomies between objective and subjective, between theism and atheism ... these are all false dichotomies.  But if you say ... not ... that proposition A is true or not ... but does person X believe proposition A and why do they believe it ... then the door to understanding people is open.  The problem with most rationalists or naturalists (who exclude people from nature) is that they are a variant of humanity.  Even Asperger types.  High functional autistic males are mostly who have produced math and science.  Otherwise they would have been musicians etc.  Einstein himself was an idiot savant.

This^ is the long version of your usual 'you damn materialists!' Why do you jump to physics? Baruch, you hate studies on humanity, you only see it as a pile of ideologies.

What does 'undertsanding people' mean? Are you making a wish? Are you praying?
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Baruch

Quote from: Sal1981 on April 20, 2019, 11:42:56 AM
What is your opinion of mindfulness? Sam Harris said, paraphrasing, that it is meditation decoupled from buddhism. All the effects of meditation without the theistic baggage.

It is better than un-mindfullness ;-)  I think highly of Sam Harris, though technically, he is no guru.  For practice, not theory, you need a guru, someone who has already done what you want to learn to do.  Sam Harris is an academic, who knows how to read a French restaurant menu, but doesn't know how any of the food tastes.  Can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.  This paradigm is found in other humanities, art teachers who can't paint etc.

There is non-theistic Hinduism and non-theistic Buddhism, for millennia already.  From the time of the Upanishads forward, on thru the early development of Buddhism, there were semi-theistic to non-theistic movements within Indian ascetic culture.  This arose from introspection.  But the problem for lay people, in a theistic culture, is that they need at least the crutch of traditional theism, and even religious social/economic/political structures.  We had a non-theist Hindu post here once.  But y'alls Western cultural imperialism couldn't appreciate him.  I would have loved to converse with him more.  Arik is also the real deal, I have enjoyed his posts though most aren't directed to me.  We know each other, winking back and forth as insiders.

Individual hermits or collective monks, lie outside normal life styles, though in the case of Hinduism, they are traditionally acceptable for a man who has retired (no longer has children to care for, or a wife to care for).  I am there now (joke vs Ram Dass).  So for students (children) and lay people (householders), doing a full ascetic/contemplative life is not an option, aside from occasional retreats.  I can develop a whole lifestyle now.

So if you want a real second-hand guru/disciple bio, with a Western bent, Ram Dass is a good example:

"Ram Dass is an American spiritual teacher, former academic and clinical psychologist, and author of many books, including the 1971 book Be Here Now."

Of course nobody can copy him.  You can't be him.  This is a block for literalists, who can't meme (aka metaphor).  Literalists are not superior beings, but are to be respected as human beings, even though I see they have a handicap.  We all have handicaps.

Of course, traditionally, this phase of spiritual development/psychological therapeutic practice, is death-affirming.  The mystery is the duality of life/death.  It is an extended cremation-ground meditation aka Shiva as guru or Krishna's lecture to Arjuna (in the Gita).  This whole pattern is duplicated in traditional Jewish Kabbalah, which is why rabbis restrict it to men who are over 40 and don't have householder responsibilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXeBAG2LzHo

But there is no panacea ... sometimes you don't want to be mindful (you need to ruminate/day dream).  Just as there are times when you need to be a materialist (when you are doing engineering).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 20, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
This^ is the long version of your usual 'you damn materialists!' Why do you jump to physics? Baruch, you hate studies on humanity, you only see it as a pile of ideologies.

What does 'undertsanding people' mean? Are you making a wish? Are you praying?

To a rationalist, reality is a chess game where nobody cheats.  I have to regret to tell rationalists ... life isn't a chess game, and everyone cheats.

I refer to physics, because it is what some people here relate to.  Joe (who used to post here) had Einstein as his idolatry.  Not that I don't like physics (it is politics I don't like ... The Will To Power), it just doesn't inform me as to who I am, not even what I am.  It only tells me what my atoms/molecules are.  Reductionism doesn't work for me, so materialism/physicalism won't work either.

Nothing wrong with materialism or materialists ... because there is nothing wrong with humanity, they are what they are.  Like it or not.  Often I don't like it, but that is my problem, not yours.  Just as there is nothing wrong with me as an Anglo, having Mexican food for lunch.  But when you say, the only food in the universe is Mexican food, then I can see your eyes swirling in their sockets, and back away, hoping you will resume taking your meds.

And yes, I have used 5 years of rhetoric in my posts here.  In fact I have developed a lot during my time here.  But I am only becoming more myself, not becoming anyone else, or becoming a sterile female worker bee in some socialist hive.  Ideologically I am pro-life and pro-people.  But in practice there are problems with that ideology, for me.  Life feeds on life aka death.  People = most annoying species ever!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

More quickies for ADHD sufferers ...

Hinduism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR3bNpFKlbI

Buddhism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=336BAyHWcE0

Daoism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeAYXNWRtww

In the Book of Acts, Paul is described as a follower of The Way aka Dao.

This fills out the context of the prior Zen video.

Chan (China) + Bushido (Japan) = Zen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6S-Tq3QG18
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_psychology

There are many aspects that can be discussed, but clearly Eastern cultural psychology is ancient, and introspective.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

drunkenshoe

#10
Quote from: Baruch on April 20, 2019, 01:50:13 PM
To a rationalist, reality is a chess game where nobody cheats.  I have to regret to tell rationalists ... life isn't a chess game, and everyone cheats.

I refer to physics, because it is what some people here relate to.  Joe (who used to post here) had Einstein as his idolatry.  Not that I don't like physics (it is politics I don't like ... The Will To Power), it just doesn't inform me as to who I am, not even what I am.  It only tells me what my atoms/molecules are.  Reductionism doesn't work for me, so materialism/physicalism won't work either.

Nothing wrong with materialism or materialists ... because there is nothing wrong with humanity, they are what they are.  Like it or not.  Often I don't like it, but that is my problem, not yours.  Just as there is nothing wrong with me as an Anglo, having Mexican food for lunch.  But when you say, the only food in the universe is Mexican food, then I can see your eyes swirling in their sockets, and back away, hoping you will resume taking your meds.

And yes, I have used 5 years of rhetoric in my posts here.  In fact I have developed a lot during my time here.  But I am only becoming more myself, not becoming anyone else, or becoming a sterile female worker bee in some socialist hive.  Ideologically I am pro-life and pro-people.  But in practice there are problems with that ideology, for me.  Life feeds on life aka death.  People = most annoying species ever!

Raionalists hate to tell you that rationalism is not something you can fit into highly painted, known series of 'status quos' in 19th century history, so that you could pick one and apply it to wherever you want when you don't like it, esp. when 'the status quo' doesn't satisfy your personal sense of justice. Because they know life is not a chess game or any game what so ever. They don't think Mexican food or any food in particular has anything to say about the universe, but choosing how to cook any kind of meal.

Really? For someone who had to study humanities in German tradition, all your latest bullshit points that your problem seems to be skipping the part that you actually knew you'd be retiring for some time, but didn't include that, naturally because first it is personal, second you don't know how to deal with it. That's something more than rhetoric. 

It's not something bad. It doesn't mean you are useless. It's something good. It means you have done it, sweety. You have finished your 'duty'. Call it pyschology, call it zen. It's not something bad. It's difficult, because it is some sort of a coming of age.           

"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Baruch

More German-Volk-Superiority?  More like, Hegel this and Hegel that.  The Continental philosophy is different than the Anglo-American philosophy.  Not to mention India and China (traditional thinking).  Are any of them right or wrong?  And is teleological progress a real thing?  It is if you agree with Aristotle.  That is why I included the whole Wiki psychology entry.  It isn't cut and dried, like the mass of the Higgs boson (Higgs physics isn't done).

One form of rationality would say that it has no subjectivity, has no cultural bias.  But I can't agree to that.  The empirical evidence is contrary.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

drunkenshoe

#12
Quote from: Baruch on April 22, 2019, 01:31:01 PM
More German-Volk-Superiority?  The Continental philosophy is different than the Anglo-American philosophy.

No. Just being the modern genuine source of Western philosophy. And its critic at the same time. That's your culture. So yeah, :*.  Which America blew up with 'Murrica culture, while it could have created wonders.

QuoteNot to mention India and China (traditional thinking).  Are any of them right or wrong?

Right or wrong? Are we back to 'understanding people' or some sort of psychology you think is 'right'? Or Zen? Because philosophy is much more than what you feel about it, sweety.

QuoteAnd is teleological progress a real thing?

Do you think the concept of causality a real thing? 

QuoteIt is if you agree with Aristotle.

See, the previous post.

QuoteThat is why I included the whole Wiki psychology entry.  It isn't cut and dried, like the mass of the Higgs boson (Higgs physics isn't done).

Yeah, thank fuck. Because if you had any idea what Democritus wrote besides his theory of atoms, we'd be reading that.

QuoteOne form of rationality would say that it has no subjectivity, has no cultural bias.  But I can't agree to that.  The empirical evidence is contrary.

There is no many forms of rationality. 

You need to learn what rationalism is.   
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 22, 2019, 01:52:07 PM
No. Just being the modern genuine source of Western philosophy. And its critic at the same time. That's your culture. So yeah, :*.  Which America blew up with 'Murrica culture, while it could have created wonders.

The problem with Kant (yes, I saw your other post, that you deleted quickly) ... is that his "a priori" is wrong.  Everything is "a posteriori" (double entendre).

Not defending US culture ... we are gauche and proud of it (see Trump).  As un-kosher, I totally reject ethics and morality, including any categorical imperative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsgAsw4XGvU

Quote
Right or wrong? Are we back to 'understanding people' or some sort of psychology you think is 'right'? Or Zen? Because philosophy is much more than what you feel about it, sweety.

I am speaking of psychology, not philosophy or theology.  In some sense, philosophy is pre-modern psychology.  Modern philosophy (but not Plato) is secular theology ... an Powerpoint without the story.  A Wiki link to "philosophy" would be very long also.  But what is a fact today, depends on facts of the past, they aren't free of the "historical fallacy".

Quote
Do you think the concept of causality a real thing? 

See, the previous post.

Human ideas are instrumentalities not realities.  Causality is an instrumentality, not a truth.  A compass is an instrument.  Which direction magnetic North is, is a reality, depending on where you are standing (and when).  Plato was totally wrong about "The Forms", and most of philosophy is commentary on Plato, who got it wrong.

Quote
Yeah, thank fuck. Because if you had any idea what Democritus wrote besides his theory of atoms, we'd be reading that.

There is no many forms of rationality.

You need to learn what rationalism is.

Sorry, your view of "category A" is too narrow.  See first paragraph.  Of course this is English.  Maybe in Turkish, the cognate only has one meaning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

drunkenshoe

#14
Oh ffs. I knew I shouldn't have deleted that post.

There was a post here guys:

"... Baruch: 'Less Kant, more Cunt.' ..."



"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari