Will Heaven last forever?

[Unbeliever]

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

   
Luke 21:33

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

If Heaven is to "pass away", what does that mean for all those Christians who are expecting to live eternally - in Heaven? How can Heaven be eternal if God says it will cease to exist sometime in the inderterminate future? Where will the saved spend eternity, if not in Heaven?

Notice also that the Bible says nothing at all about Hell ever passing away, which means infinite torture for the unsaved, but eternal bliss in Heaven will not be available to the saved.

[Baruch]

Why are you curious, about Christian theology, that even Christians don't agree about?

We don't even agree on what "forever" means.

[aitm]

Don't be silly....heaven is not "heaven". Heaven is the clouds above us....that is where god peeks at us from as told in the old book. This is he shows us his face...heaven is not "heaven".....no, no,no,no....HEAVEN is the real heaven and it lasts forever and day....so be it.....











silly atheist.

[Blackleaf]

Didn't Jews believe in the multiple levels of the heavens or something? @Baruch, do you have any light to shine on this, given you're probably the only one here who can read these scriptures in their original languages?

[Baruch]

Didn't Jews believe in the multiple levels of the heavens or something? @Baruch, do you have any light to shine on this, given you're probably the only one here who can read these scriptures in their original languages?

Yes, this was a common belief.  3 heavens or maybe 7 heavens depending.  Apostle Paul talks about 3 heavens.  Kabbalists of 2000 years ago have been mentioned in passing.  But it didn't get published much (in manuscript) until 1000 years ago.

So is this some intellectual exercise?  No, it was kabbalah aka gnosticism aka shamanism.  Which may or may not have been assisted by pharmaceuticals.  The origins of this are very ancient indeed.  The term is ambiguous in the Hebrew, starting with the first verse of Genesis.  Heavens aka "Shamayim", not Heaven.  What is called a collective noun.  There are countable nouns like "dog", there are mass nouns like "water".  A mass noun is associated with ambiguous continuous quantity.  In Hebrew, "water" aka "mayim" is always plural just like "heaven".  So proper translation is always "waters" never "water".  A collective noun is like a mass noun, but for a discrete plurality.  For example "crowd" refers to more than one, but doesn't tell you how many.  "crowds" is doubly plural.  Poetically, "heavens" and "waters" are mutually suggestive.  Because of course we get precipitation out of the sky.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12:2, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;) such as one caught up to the third heaven."

Daniel says in Daniel 10:7-9, "I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground."

We are hearing "trance" described.  Which has been around since the Stone Age.  In early Kabbalah, Genesis and Ezekiel were taken as objects of contemplation while in trance.  People trying to re-experience what it was like to be Moses or Ezekiel.  The Genesis contemplation was called "the way of beginnings" and the Ezekiel contemplation was called "the way of the chariot".  The courts of Egypt and Babylon had professional dream interpreters.

"The Talmud recounts how four scholars, Rabbi Akiva, Ben Zoma, Ben Azzai and Elisha ben Avuya entered the PaRDeS, meaning that together they delved into the most hidden secrets of the Torah. As a result, Ben Azzai lost his life, Ben Zoma lost his mind and Elisha ben Avuya lost his faith. Of the four scholars, only Rabbi Akiva emerged unscathed."  But this is partisan, Rabbi Elisha ben Avuya is like Jesus or Paul, he was antinomian.  Avuya means "G-d is my father".  Elisha vs Jesus matched Elijah vs John the Baptist.  Rabbi Akiva endorsed the false messiah Bar Kochbah "Son of a star" during the third revolt of the Jews against the Romans (Jerusalem was destroyed in the first revolt).  The Talmud is filled with trans-Biblical stories, called Midrashim, though Orthodox Jews concern themselves with only the legalistic discussions.  These stories however were grist for the Kabbalist mill.

The Gospel of Mary is a story about such a seance, by the Disciples.  They have experienced a spiritual Jesus, not a flesh and blood one.  And Mary Magdalene is the most adept.  Paul on the road to Damascus, experienced a spiritual Jesus too, in a vision that left him temporarily blind (Sun trance?).  These were Hellenistic Jews, Greek speakers rather than Hebrew speakers.  Pro-Greco-Roman often, as Paul was, and anti-Persian.  The Hebrew-Aramaic Jews were anti-Greco-Roman, and pro-Persian

Complicated stories of divine cosmology go back to Egypt and Babylonia ... particularly the Egyptian "Book of the Dead".  The more recent (1000 years ago) Kabbalah theology involves 10 heavens (the sephirot).  The sephirot are connected together by the 22 letters of Hebrew, aka the Logos of John's Gospel.  The figure of the sephirot makes up the "Tree of Life" from Genesis, or the "Primordial Adam" aka Jesus.  Seems to me that this method of trance goes back 2000 years at least, because this is partly where the Gospels and theology of the Epistles arose from.  And need we even mention the Dead Sea Scrolls?  There you have an entire community of kohanim/leviim in exile from the Temple, who are engaged in "orthodox" aka "non-hellenistic" Kabbalah.

[Baruch]

Recent Jewish review of Dead Sea Scrolls scholarship ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92hyhBXLaWE

Catholic control of them, and casuistry to justify Catholic dogma, has spread a lot of nonsense.

If you can imagine that there were smaller Hellenistic gnostic groups in Antioch, Damascus and Alexandria, then you can imagine what the production of the New Testament books was like.

The general reason for the burial of the scrolls, was because of wear, and sacredness of the word of G-d.  This still applies to Torah scrolls.  The other great deposit of Jewish writings, are from the Cairo Genizah ... the Medieval ritual deposit of holy writings in the attic of the oldest synagogue in Cairo.

[Baruch]

Here is the Gentile version of the Dead Sea Scrolls ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvkWOsxi-u8

Which is also good stuff, but secular.

[Baruch]

Audiobook Gospel of Mary ... not very long ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af2XbRRY2bQ

Of course there are many other gnostic writings, such as the Gospel of Thomas, that the Church disputes, to its disgrace.

[Baruch]

A documentary on Kabbalah ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyQQ4xU8Pik

Did I mention I am a student of Kabbalah and of the Book of the Dead, and the un-canonical Gospels?  I have mentioned it years ago.

[Blackleaf]

Yes, this was a common belief.  3 heavens or maybe 7 heavens depending.  Apostle Paul talks about 3 heavens.  Kabbalists of 2000 years ago have been mentioned in passing.  But it didn't get published much (in manuscript) until 1000 years ago.

So is this some intellectual exercise?  No, it was kabbalah aka gnosticism aka shamanism.  Which may or may not have been assisted by pharmaceuticals.  The origins of this are very ancient indeed.  The term is ambiguous in the Hebrew, starting with the first verse of Genesis.  Heavens aka "Shamayim", not Heaven.  What is called a collective noun.  There are countable nouns like "dog", there are mass nouns like "water".  A mass noun is associated with ambiguous continuous quantity.  In Hebrew, "water" aka "mayim" is always plural just like "heaven".  So proper translation is always "waters" never "water".  A collective noun is like a mass noun, but for a discrete plurality.  For example "crowd" refers to more than one, but doesn't tell you how many.  "crowds" is doubly plural.  Poetically, "heavens" and "waters" are mutually suggestive.  Because of course we get precipitation out of the sky.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12:2, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;) such as one caught up to the third heaven."

Daniel says in Daniel 10:7-9, "I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground."

We are hearing "trance" described.  Which has been around since the Stone Age.  In early Kabbalah, Genesis and Ezekiel were taken as objects of contemplation while in trance.  People trying to re-experience what it was like to be Moses or Ezekiel.  The Genesis contemplation was called "the way of beginnings" and the Ezekiel contemplation was called "the way of the chariot".  The courts of Egypt and Babylon had professional dream interpreters.

"The Talmud recounts how four scholars, Rabbi Akiva, Ben Zoma, Ben Azzai and Elisha ben Avuya entered the PaRDeS, meaning that together they delved into the most hidden secrets of the Torah. As a result, Ben Azzai lost his life, Ben Zoma lost his mind and Elisha ben Avuya lost his faith. Of the four scholars, only Rabbi Akiva emerged unscathed."  But this is partisan, Rabbi Elisha ben Avuya is like Jesus or Paul, he was antinomian.  Avuya means "G-d is my father".  Elisha vs Jesus matched Elijah vs John the Baptist.  Rabbi Akiva endorsed the false messiah Bar Kochbah "Son of a star" during the third revolt of the Jews against the Romans (Jerusalem was destroyed in the first revolt).  The Talmud is filled with trans-Biblical stories, called Midrashim, though Orthodox Jews concern themselves with only the legalistic discussions.  These stories however were grist for the Kabbalist mill.

The Gospel of Mary is a story about such a seance, by the Disciples.  They have experienced a spiritual Jesus, not a flesh and blood one.  And Mary Magdalene is the most adept.  Paul on the road to Damascus, experienced a spiritual Jesus too, in a vision that left him temporarily blind (Sun trance?).  These were Hellenistic Jews, Greek speakers rather than Hebrew speakers.  Pro-Greco-Roman often, as Paul was, and anti-Persian.  The Hebrew-Aramaic Jews were anti-Greco-Roman, and pro-Persian

Complicated stories of divine cosmology go back to Egypt and Babylonia ... particularly the Egyptian "Book of the Dead".  The more recent (1000 years ago) Kabbalah theology involves 10 heavens (the sephirot).  The sephirot are connected together by the 22 letters of Hebrew, aka the Logos of John's Gospel.  The figure of the sephirot makes up the "Tree of Life" from Genesis, or the "Primordial Adam" aka Jesus.  Seems to me that this method of trance goes back 2000 years at least, because this is partly where the Gospels and theology of the Epistles arose from.  And need we even mention the Dead Sea Scrolls?  There you have an entire community of kohanim/leviim in exile from the Temple, who are engaged in "orthodox" aka "non-hellenistic" Kabbalah.

So when these passages say the "heavens" will pass away, it is referring to all of the whatever number of heavens there are as a whole? So even the heaven that God lives in will go away? It seems like such an odd thing to promise Heaven as a reward, and then say that God will destroy it like everything else.

[Blackleaf]

Notice also that the Bible says nothing at all about Hell ever passing away, which means infinite torture for the unsaved, but eternal bliss in Heaven will not be available to the saved.

If I'm not mistaken, the concept of Hell didn't really exist back then the same way it does now. The Jews referred to the afterlife as Sheol, or "the grave." So to the Christians writing that the "Heavens and the earth will pass away," they were probably including "Hell" as part of the Earth. I think.

[Baruch]

So when these passages say the "heavens" will pass away, it is referring to all of the whatever number of heavens there are as a whole? So even the heaven that God lives in will go away? It seems like such an odd thing to promise Heaven as a reward, and then say that God will destroy it like everything else.

Not in Hinduism.  Heaven and Hell are the final illusions, as I recently posted under Arik's intro.  Also Heaven isn't always up and Hell down ... that was an Aristotelian (Greek) spin on the idea.  In the Talmud, Heaven and Hell are the same place, but Heaven is the good neighborhood and Hell is the bad neighborhood.  Only appropriate that all Gentiles end up in a ghetto run by Jews ;-)

[Baruch]

If I'm not mistaken, the concept of Hell didn't really exist back then the same way it does now. The Jews referred to the afterlife as Sheol, or "the grave." So to the Christians writing that the "Heavens and the earth will pass away," they were probably including "Hell" as part of the Earth. I think.

In the old old Testament ... yes, Sheol = grave or dust.  Same afterlife as old Mesopotamia.  Only Noah and his wife got the Elysian Fields (aka Dilmun).  Not like the afterlife of old Egypt which was quite nice, if you weren't damned first.  And afterlife theory had greatly changed in the time 900 BCE to 100 CE.  Egyptian and Persian (Zoroastrian) influence, as well as from places farther East.

There never was just one Jewish opinion, or just one Christian opinion anyway.  Christians, who were Greco-Roman, called it Hades, not Hell.  They were partial converts from Greco-Roman paganism.  Christian converts from Egyptian paganism weren't the same.  Hell = Viking afterlife ... a cold place.  Dante didn't use the word Hell either, he was Italian.  He used "inferno".  The infernal regions weren't necessarily hot.  His long poem reads much like the Hades adventures of Aeneas from Virgil's Aeneid.

[Unbeliever]

So when Revelation 12:7 says "And there was war in heaven" which heaven is being referenced? The clouds above, or heaven the abode of God? Maybe it was like Star Wars?

[Baruch]

So when Revelation 12:7 says "And there was war in heaven" which heaven is being referenced? The clouds above, or heaven the abode of God? Maybe it was like Star Wars?

Borrowed from Zoroastrianism.  As above, so below ... is an old magical nostrum.  So yes, there is a celestial battle between angels and demons.  But in Hinduism this is between asuras and devas.  The asuras being anti-gods.  The devas being gods.  But Zoroastrianism reversed that naming, devas are the bad guys.  And from the Zoroastrians ... devas become devils.

But the real war is on Earth, between the saved and the damned.  See the War Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Literal supernatural war on Earth, not just in Heaven.

Revelations is a modified Jewish apocalypse, slightly adapted to a Christian Gentile audience.