Hi

[Arik]

Rhetorically theists and atheists are the same, in the sense that they have an agenda.  Since I am theist, I also have an agenda.  I am not unbiased.  Agnostics have no bias, or agenda.  But I am not saying that agnostics are superior.  It may be that they are just lazy and dull witted ;-)

----

Of course, there are more than one kind of atheist.  Bhakti Vaishnavas are classic theists.  But there are even atheist Shaivas.  India has a spectrum of traditions.  And India long ago had Charvakas (materialists) .  With the understanding that divinity in S & E Asia is very different than the W Asia kind (Abrahamic).

The often sited Western varieties are rationalist (theism makes no sense) and empiricist (theism has no evidence).  It is the latter group you face here.  Usually materialists are of the second type ... because if it is material, it isn't divine, but natural ... and they contend that everything is material, so everything is natural.  They also consider divine and material mutually exclusive.  That syllogism is as far as their logic need go.  QED, if you accept their premises and their syllogism.

Oh, well if they reckon that everything is material then they must have a way to smell, see, taste and touch the consciousness.
Something that the poor Arik can not grasp.

Brilliant, absolutely blazing brilliant.

[Arik]

Repeating this because you think it's such a knock-down argument that you want to bask in its brilliance or because of substantial reading difficulty?

I try my very best to say this only when someone else say that with the physical death is all over.
Atheists are not the only people that are allowed to ask for evidence after all.

Right?

[Arik]

Your own human experience counts for nothing, Popular Science articles are everything.

I call this.........smart philosophy.
I like it.

[Plu]

Oh, well if they reckon that everything is material then they must have a way to smell, see, taste and touch the consciousness.

Yes, the neurons in the brain. But they go away when the person dies.

[Arik]

Yes, the neurons in the brain. But they go away when the person dies.

Oh well, considering that you must have a good amount of knowledge regarding this subject I hope you don't mind to tell me what is the difference between neurons and consciousness.

Thanks Plu.

[Plu]

I have no idea, is there one? You're the one claiming there are supernatural parts to the consciousness, not me.

[Arik]

I have no idea, is there one? You're the one claiming there are supernatural parts to the consciousness, not me.

Not at all Plu.

I never said that the consciousness is supernatural.
I rather said that there are different level of awareness within the conscious but this doesn't mean that the consciousness is supernatural.
A dog is conscious but his consciousness is not as wide as the one in humans.
So the conscious is only one but each individual has got different level of awareness of who they are.

Is this so complicated and out of your reach to grasp?


By the way why you ask if there is one?
One what?
One consciousness?

[Plu]

I never said that the consciousness is supernatural.

Are there only natural parts that make up the consciousness? You seem to claim it lives on after the body dies, but if a body if fully obliterated, then the only way a consciousness can live on if it is supernatural.

Either the consciousness dies when the body is gone, or it's supernatural. There's no real other way; the body itself is an entirely natural thing, made of atoms and measurable energies and all of them stop when you die.

Note that being "supernatural" simply means it's not made of natural components. I'm not using the word in any mystical or spiritual sense here.

[Mike Cl]

Something that the poor Arik can not grasp.

That takes in the entire universe!!

[Baruch]

Yes, the neurons in the brain. But they go away when the person dies.

When the radio breaks, grandpa can't listen to Amos & Andy, but the transmitted radio program still exists.

Actually, per solipsism, when you die, the universe ceases to exist.

[Baruch]

I have no idea, is there one? You're the one claiming there are supernatural parts to the consciousness, not me.

But there is no consciousness, per materialism.  Non-material things (ideas) are invalid (if they don't match my prejudice).  The neurons are real, but their activity isn't.  And their activity, in context, is incomprehensibly complicated.

[Baruch]

Are there only natural parts that make up the consciousness? You seem to claim it lives on after the body dies, but if a body if fully obliterated, then the only way a consciousness can live on if it is supernatural.

Either the consciousness dies when the body is gone, or it's supernatural. There's no real other way; the body itself is an entirely natural thing, made of atoms and measurable energies and all of them stop when you die.

Note that being "supernatural" simply means it's not made of natural components. I'm not using the word in any mystical or spiritual sense here.

There is no life.  So neurons aren't alive.  They are just arbitrary atomic arrangements, same as a rock in my driveway.  Things don't become alive or go out of life.  Same as they don't become conscious or go out of consciousness.

Natural vs supernatural, theism vs atheism are ... distractions.  Lines drawn in the sand between irreconcilable ideologies.

[Baruch]

That takes in the entire universe!!

Yes, the boundary problem.  The Schroedinger's Cat.  What separates one thing from another?  Nothing, same as boundaries on a map.  These boundaries that separate you from me for example, is an idea, and all ideas are delusions (to materialists).  Otherwise if ideas are not delusions, then if a Christian believes that Jesus died for is sins, then it is true.  Unless we are not equal (you are Illuminati and I am not).  But that is the point, virtue signaling as a tool to achieve total political power.

See Plato, didn't like Homer, because that dead poet prevented Plato from seizing power over the narrative.  The average Athenian preferred the common narrative, not Plato's Republic.  Today we are the opposite.  Because we failed to terminate all the egg-heads.  Socrates ... scratch.  Plato?  That one got away.  The reason why your colleges are shit, is because the whole idea was created by a Greek egg-head 2400 years ago.

[Mike Cl]

That's a weak reply, even for you.  I don't know and don't care what your definition of what a materialist is--I don't necessarily agree that I am one--and I don't care.  Ideas exist because we see the results of those ideas.  And we now know that when a person is thinking that particular parts of the brain are fired up and working.  I can't see the wind, but I can see the result; and science now can demonstrate how wind is generated and why.  I can't hear a dog whistle, yet my dog can.  None of that is supernatural; it is totally and completely natural.  Theists seem to hate 'I don't know', and so when faced with one they simply say--goddidit.  And they are happy.  We are all interconnected because we live in this universe and are constructed of the same building blocks as the universe is.  We can never be totally connected because we are all unique.  I really do not know and can't know, what you think.  But I can make guesses based upon your actions.  None of that is supernatural.

[Baruch]

That's a weak reply, even for you.  I don't know and don't care what your definition of what a materialist is--I don't necessarily agree that I am one--and I don't care.  Ideas exist because we see the results of those ideas.  And we now know that when a person is thinking that particular parts of the brain are fired up and working.  I can't see the wind, but I can see the result; and science now can demonstrate how wind is generated and why.  I can't hear a dog whistle, yet my dog can.  None of that is supernatural; it is totally and completely natural.  Theists seem to hate 'I don't know', and so when faced with one they simply say--goddidit.  And they are happy.  We are all interconnected because we live in this universe and are constructed of the same building blocks as the universe is.  We can never be totally connected because we are all unique.  I really do not know and can't know, what you think.  But I can make guesses based upon your actions.  None of that is supernatural.

Words are bad?  Ban all words.  Less the weak get triggered.  You can say tomato, and I can say tomAto ... but the fruit stays the same.  Don't like natural or supernatural as words ... tough.  Ban words, or change or invert their meaning thru the Party.

Dualist ... there is white and black
Maniac ... there is only white or there is only black