Hi

[Arik]

The fact that Scientific American has an article on consciousness ... isn't that proof enough? (sarc)

Isn't that funny Baruch?

When you ask them where the consciousness come from they always say..........THE CONSCIOUSNESS IS A PRODUCT OF THE BRAIN.......but when you point out to them that there is no evidence to support that claim then they come up with articles after articles that analyze the connection between brain and consciousness which of course are all guessing and no evidence.

[Unbeliever]

Well, you claim that consciousness is a product of the pineal gland, which is IN THE BRAIN!

[Hydra009]

What is the difference between a theist who believe in an unproven physical hell and an atheist who believe in others unproven beliefs such as.............WHEN WE DIE IS ALL OVER..........AND.........THE CONSCIOUSNESS IS A PRODUCT OF THE BRAIN?

Unproven?  I thought you had oodles of evidence?  Dementia or dropping the pretense?  ðŸ¤"

And the answer is as simple as it is obvious: the atheist position is a best guess based on facts while the theist position has always been fantasy and wish fulfillment.

[Cavebear]

Unproven?  I thought you had oodles of evidence?  Dementia or dropping the pretense?  ðŸ¤"

And the answer is as simple as it is obvious: the atheist position is a best guess based on facts while the theist position has always been fantasy and wish fulfillment.

I have several arguments for consciousness residing in the brain.

First, there isn't any better place for it.  If you want to claim it is in the liver or spleen, go ahead.
Second, there isn't much other purpose to the brain.  The brain is where thoughts are, and thoughts seem necessary to self-awareness.
Third, when accidents mess with the brain, consciousness can be damaged or altered.
Fourth, brain size seems to be correlated with self-awareness.

I'm sure there are other good arguments in favor of my general claim, but I don't have to present ALL arguments.  A few seem sufficient.

[Baruch]

I have several arguments for consciousness residing in the brain.

First, there isn't any better place for it.  If you want to claim it is in the liver or spleen, go ahead.
Second, there isn't much other purpose to the brain.  The brain is where thoughts are, and thoughts seem necessary to self-awareness.
Third, when accidents mess with the brain, consciousness can be damaged or altered.
Fourth, brain size seems to be correlated with self-awareness.

I'm sure there are other good arguments in favor of my general claim, but I don't have to present ALL arguments.  A few seem sufficient.

Those are very good arguments.  People earlier, sometimes thought that the soul aka consciousness was in the heart or even gut (don't know about the pineal gland being central, but that is traditional in Indian thinking).  Of course, the nervous system is a whole, not just the brain.  Your awareness, most of which isn't conscious, is throughout your whole body.  That is where psycho-somatic things happen.  Consciousness is a kind of executive level thing, executive management basically.  What part the pineal gland has to do with the nervous system ... is for someone who knows more than I do. 

Obviously the endocrine system is closely tied to the emotions.  And the emotions seem to be a different level of awareness than the privileged cognitive abilities ... say playing chess ... which both E and W culture tend to value, because of class ... kings play chess ... we all want to be kings, or specifically ... maharajas, since chess originated in India.  Looking even more broadly, every cell in your body, every chemical system, is all part of a whole, and your life, as a biological mechanism, is from the whole of that, not just the part that understands that the opponent's queen is worth capturing.

Computers are very good at playing chess, but they don't play like humans, because they are not biological organisms.  This is because a chess problem is a toy problem, a closed environment context.

[Cavebear]

Those are very good arguments.  People earlier, sometimes thought that the soul aka consciousness was in the heart or even gut.  Of course, the nervous system is a whole, not just the brain.  Your awareness, most of which isn't conscious, is throughout your whole body.  That is where psycho-somatic things happen.  Consciousness is a kind of executive level thing, executive management basically.

I think you are agreeing with me.  Which is good.

I might nitpick about "Your awareness, most of which isn't conscious"...  I'm not sure the terms are very different.  I fully agree that there is much about our daily actions that are not deliberately thought, but if we had to deliberately breath or pump blood through our arteries, we wouldn't have time to think...

[Baruch]

I think you are agreeing with me.  Which is good.

I might nitpick about "Your awareness, most of which isn't conscious"...  I'm not sure the terms are very different.  I fully agree that there is much about our daily actions that are not deliberately thought, but if we had to deliberately breath or pump blood through our arteries, we wouldn't have time to think...

Yes, we do agree at least on some level.  We always have ;-)  The similarity of our circumstances imply it.  And yes, it is a very good thing that we don't have to deliberately think about the stages of digestion that happen after swallowing ;-)

[Arik]

Well, you claim that consciousness is a product of the pineal gland, which is IN THE BRAIN!

Oh, is that so?

Did I really said that?

NO UB.

I never said that.
I instead said that the pineal gland is the seat of the consciousness.
When you enter your car you obviously sit in the seat of the car don't you UB?

So the seat can not possibly be you.
In the same way the pineal gland is not you.
All the pineal gland is is a place where your consciousness stay as far as physical life is there.
After that when this physical life is over the consciousness will move into a different body-brain and a different pineal gland unless of course you end up your physical journey and merge into the supreme consciousness or unless your karma is so bad that you will not even deserve a physical body.

There are thousand upon thousand of information about the pineal gland as the seat of consciousness if you are interested to know and this goes back to the time of Shiva which is ages and ages ago so it would be wise NOT to come down with guessing before you put something into writing.
Thanks.

[Arik]

Unproven?  I thought you had oodles of evidence?  Dementia or dropping the pretense?  ðŸ¤"

And the answer is as simple as it is obvious: the atheist position is a best guess based on facts while the theist position has always been fantasy and wish fulfillment.

Are you kidding me?

You show me some real evidence that the consciousness is a product of the brain and I will give you a truck loaded with 24 carat gold bars.



However this is a bet that you will never be able to win no matter what.

As far as the theists position you should remember that every theists has got a position so I wouldn't generalize that much.
Thanks.

[Arik]

I have several arguments for consciousness residing in the brain.

First, there isn't any better place for it.  If you want to claim it is in the liver or spleen, go ahead.
Second, there isn't much other purpose to the brain.  The brain is where thoughts are, and thoughts seem necessary to self-awareness.
Third, when accidents mess with the brain, consciousness can be damaged or altered.
Fourth, brain size seems to be correlated with self-awareness.

I'm sure there are other good arguments in favor of my general claim, but I don't have to present ALL arguments.  A few seem sufficient.

Somebody must have told you that the consciousness may not reside in the brain.
Who is that fool?

Oh, by the way the brain is a place where many things reside.
Have you got a clue in which exact place in the brain the consciousness may reside?

[Cavebear]

Somebody must have told you that the consciousness may not reside in the brain.
Who is that fool?

Oh, by the way the brain is a place where many things reside.
Have you got a clue in which exact place in the brain the consciousness may reside?

Shirley, you jest...

As to where in the brain consciousness resides, I would generally say "the totality" but with a caveat that some portions are very input-sensory and may or may not be specifically part of self-awareness.

As to the rest...

"Oh, by the way the brain is a place where many things reside."

I initially thought that was a Bushism from years ago, but even HE couldn't have said that.  This one topped it.  Congratulations, Herman Cain or Betsy de Voss couldn't have said it more Trumpian.

Oh crap, I screwed up the quotes again...  Sorry. Damn...

[Baruch]

Yes, the totality I think is the correct answer.  But we really don't understand that.  We understand experiments with individual neurons or neuron pathways.

Trump wants to nominate Herman Cain for Federal Reserve Board ... oh my!

[Arik]

Somebody must have told you that the consciousness may not reside in the brain.
Who is that fool?

Oh, by the way the brain is a place where many things reside.
Have you got a clue in which exact place in the brain the consciousness may reside?

Shirley, you jest...

As to where in the brain consciousness resides, I would generally say "the totality" but with a caveat that some portions are very input-sensory and may or may not be specifically part of self-awareness.

As to the rest...

"Oh, by the way the brain is a place where many things reside."

I initially thought that was a Bushism from years ago, but even HE couldn't have said that.  This one topped it.  Congratulations, Herman Cain or Betsy de Voss couldn't have said it more Trumpian.

Oh crap, I screwed up the quotes again...  Sorry. Damn...

So if the consciousness reside in the totality of the brain then we can also say that when you enter your car you are all over the cockpit of the car.

Uhhhm, I think here we may have a bit of a problem mate. 
How can you operate the brakes, the steering wheel and all the rest by not being in the correct seat of your car?


Gee, this is a very difficult question to understand for me unless your are a super being with long arms and legs that can control your car from any place inside the cockpit.

[Unbeliever]

Cars are not brains, no matter how badly you want to stretch the metaphor to fit your woo-woo scenario.

[Baruch]

Cars are not brains, no matter how badly you want to stretch the metaphor to fit your woo-woo scenario.

With electronics, they are smarter than people (so people here have claimed in favor of autonomous vehicles).  Look, my truck can play chess, don't worry as it hurtles down the highway at 60 mph, with no driver at the wheel.  Just captive passengers screaming their heads off.