Paula Deen and the *N* word

[IMMadAsHell]

If George Carlin were alive today he would definitely had to add that word to his list of words you can't say on Television. //http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbZhpf3sQxQ

That said, what we need is the word police.  We need another cabinet member in charge of a Department of Word Usage that way we could have a legitimate list of the words that we can't say, not just on Television but in every day usage.  We could even go further and make it a crime so that the police could waste even more of their time once again on crimes that don't involve murder, robbery, etc.

[WitchSabrina]

I get what you're saying, but theres a couple elements of this situation that do bother me. The first, and lesser, one is that this is over the word nigger. It has stopped being a racial slur against black people and started being a word that only white people can't say. The word nigger is used countless times every day in conversations between black people and it isn't used as an insult but rather the same way the word "man" might be used.

i.e. man, I hate this
nigga, you crazy

Its used in this offhand sort of way. But if you're not black and you say it it doesn't matter how you intended it: you're a racist. It is diffucult to empathize with or respect the supposedly devastating racial implications of the word nigger when its been morphed into a casual word that black people say dozens of times a day to each other. If it was really that awful you would think black people wouldn't use it either. Its like native americans referring to each other as featherheads all the time.

My second issue and the more important one in my opinion is that this woman lost her job for saying the word. Thats pretty fucking crazy. She may be rich enough to be okay, but other people lose their jobs over this and similar relatively unimportant social blunders and their lives are wrecked. When did we become a society that demands the ruination of a person for saying the wrong word? If you live in a country where you're supposed to be allowed to say and think what you want, but if you say or think the wrong thing you get chewed up and spat out, then in what way do we actually have those freedoms?

But my issue is, do all of these "elements" bother you more than the racism? Because that certainly seems true of way too many people I've seen talking about this.

It becomes more about "Well, what am *I* allowed to say? What if I lose *my* job?" Is it really that precarious of a situation that you don't know how not to say racist things, really? People get all anxious when they see the "crucifixion" of Paula Deen and start drawing conclusions about their station in life -- seeing her as a direct cautionary tale (of course; if you're white and she's white, you must automatically have tons in common) -- than how her words in a public arena, around her black employees on a regular basis, affect them.

Well, I'd say first off, the N-word is out. It's just right out. Don't worry about who else can say it; it doesn't matter. You know what else I can't say? I can't say "Asshole!" really loud in my boss's face. I can't say "Quit being a total fucking dick" to my kid when he's acting out. There is an endless array of things I can't say, whether out of sheer civility or the threat of an unwanted consequence. I knew that when I was 16 years old, and yet we still have grown adults who seem . . . stricken by the fact that they aren't allowed to say a word. And it's not even that they're not allowed to say it, or can't physically force the word out; they just don't want to deal with the consequences of saying it.

But you know what? I'm glad there are consequences. I'd rather there be swift, severe consequences for saying it than none at all, or even the lukewarm sort that means absolutely nothing in a practical sense. To a degree, the latter is more representative of America. Sure, Michael Richards probably "destroyed" his career doing what he did (although, by my count, he's got four new credits in IMDB since his racist rant). But then you've got Charlie Sheen, who was a temporary internet HERO for his stream of gibberish over Twitter, this man who has beaten and harassed women, besides launching his own racist tirade. Dog the Bounty Hunter had his show for several more years after his incident, and I hear CMT just picked him up for a NEW series.

All the while, people seem to lament the highly public, visible nature of their jobs. "Oh, networks can fire them if they say something embarrassing or hurtful!" Well . . . yes, they CAN. If it's 2013 and you're still not aware that saying the N-word is hurtful and offensive to people, it's probably the best move any network can make.

That said, Paula Deen's career isn't over any more than Imus' and Sheen's and Richards' were. A lot of sponsors are dropping her while the news is hot; I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that there will eventually be some sort of conciliatory guest appearance on Oprah's new show, or The View. Time will pass and all will gradually be forgiven, especially if she goes on TV and talk about how much of a "struggle" she went through and how it was all a "hard learning experience" and how she managed to "persevere" and blah blah blah. Because that's generally how it works; celebrities rarely feel any fatal, long-lasting consequences for their actions if they're marketable enough. And then being WHITE celebrities on top of it? She'll be back. They all came back.

That is, of course, for people who lose sleep over multimillionaires who lose endorsement deals and find themselves temporarily jobless. I know there's a lot of us.

As for the rest of us -- what consequences are there really? Okay, a boss might fire you for saying the word (as they might also fire me for yelling "Fuck!", or insulting the company -- speech has consequences, unless you're proposing it shouldn't). You might lose a couple of friends in disgust. A few black people might think you're mean. And then what? All of that sounds like a paid vacation compared to the sort of society where saying the N-word willy nilly was completely fine because the people about whom it was said were looked upon as inherently worth less than whites.

Words can inform behavior; what we allow or even encourage in civilized conversation can very easily influence how we feel about a topic, an incident or even a group of people. That's why conservatives call social programs "entitlement programs" or "Welfare", and why progressives tend to call them "social programs" or "safety nets". Even if "entitlement program" is accurate and describes funds to which the public is entitled by paying into them via taxes, the word "entitlement" is a heavily negatively-biased word now, and people who dislike those programs know that. They're also very fond of dog-whistle racism and putting things in quite racist terms without being explicitly racist. Words can be incredibly powerful and very much do influence how we look at people. That's why there's a strong reaction to the N-word, and why no one in his right mind should be acting to try and lessen that effect instead of simply not saying it as a conscientious citizen.

No, none of this addresses any of the worst causes-and-effects of systemic racism in this country, not by a long shot. But not too many are addressing that, anyway. I personally try to vote in ways that will ameliorate it -- I wanted bankers in jail for stealing money from everyone and making subprime loans that affected a much larger percentage of African Americans than whites -- but that's just me, and yet I can still find the energy to say "fuck you" to anyone who imagines they should have every right to say the N-word with impunity. And that's what people are still arguing over, now. Not only are there are tons of shady, racist business practices and laws on the books right now, but then there are people upset because there's a racial epithet they can't say. That's where we are.  

Yet, people who do speak up and who do condemn its usage are told "Go complain about REAL racism!" It's never the lovers-of-all-things-N-word who are told, if they really DON'T want to be branded a racist, to stop using racist words and bickering about not being allowed to, and go tackle some of those more important racial causes themselves if they're so adamant about not appearing racist.

And by the way -- the N-word isn't a view. I'm actually pretty offended that anyone would compare liberal views or atheist thought (both things that apply to me) to a disgusting racial epithet. The N-word isn't an idea. It's not a concept. People are offended by liberal thought because they hate discourse and things which challenge their beliefs; same for atheism or secularism.

People are offended by the N-word because it was a word used by racists to degrade black people. They have ample CAUSE to find it offensive because that was its intention. Let's please lay off the WILD false equivalency.

HOORAY for common sense, sensitivity where it matters and excellent word usage!

[Nonsensei]

But my issue is, do all of these "elements" bother you more than the racism? Because that certainly seems true of way too many people I've seen talking about this.

It becomes more about "Well, what am *I* allowed to say? What if I lose *my* job?" Is it really that precarious of a situation that you don't know how not to say racist things, really? People get all anxious when they see the "crucifixion" of Paula Deen and start drawing conclusions about their station in life -- seeing her as a direct cautionary tale (of course; if you're white and she's white, you must automatically have tons in common) -- than how her words in a public arena, around her black employees on a regular basis, affect them.

But it IS a precarious situation, because we aren't just talking about losing your livelihood for saying the word nigger. We are talking about an entire culture that has come to look upon the ruination of a person for holding certain views  be they racist, sexist, unpatriotic, whatever (and daring to express them in our supposedly open society) as a good thing! It is becoming acceptable that a person's life be wrecked in retribution for an unpopular utterance. Feelings and sensibilities are being valued above the literal, physical well being of people.

And just to drive this home, because its something I think people who discuss this issue never really allow themselves to think about, some people who lose their jobs CANT GET ANOTHER ONE. Not only is the economy shit right now, making it even harder than normal, but these people lost their jobs over a social blunder which serves as another barrier against employment. We are talking about denying people the ability to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads because of something they said one time. We are talking about some kids not being able to go to college because the fund was used up trying to stay off the street for 2-3 years while mom or dad were trying to get another job.

This is real fucking shit happening. Real consequences, and devastating ones. Consequences that hit hard not just the person who said the wrong thing, but everyone relying on that person for financial support. All because they said something someone found offensive and society had to have its pound of flesh.

If you want to convince me that this is a rational, reasonable reaction to offense you're going to have to do better than that.

[hillbillyatheist]

She's not in trouble because she "expressed herself".   She's in trouble for being fucking racist.

I think there's a Huge difference between being *allowed* to express one's views........... and that *someone* who expresses their views being an asshole racist.  


Big. Fuck. Difference.

what is that difference?

lets take Christianity (or islam) and racism.

they're both bullshit.

they're both belief systems responsible for oppression, murder, genocide, etc.

both are groups of people who think they are gods special little snowflake, better than the others.

and both continue to negatively effect our world today. look at how Christians treat gays for example.

I used to hate gays. however because expressing homophobic views in Oklahoma didn't mean your life was ruined, I expressed them, and enjoyed pissing off self righteous liberals.
one day I met a guy who didn't react by throwing a hissy fit (btw, I'm not saying you are, i'm just talking in general here).

he just countered my views with well thought out questions and points.
and he changed my mind.

I can tell you now, the only reason I'm a liberal atheist today is because my views were challenged by debate and not by fear of expressing them.

when I encounter a racist, I challenge them. I ask them questions like "why do you think whites are better" (or blacks) I point out good examples and bad in each race, etc.
try to get them to rethink their views.

thats how it should be done.

racists aren't monsters. they're people, like you and me, who happen to have a stupid belief, that needs to be challenged for their own sake and for all of our sakes. same as with other bullshit beliefs that cause harm, like that vaccines are bad, or that climate change isn't real, or that being gay is a choice.

you can't change peoples mind with fear and oppression. that simply causes the beliefs to go underground. no it needs to be in the light so they can see why they're wrong, and join our side.

[WitchSabrina]

Responding to someone's racism isn't fear nor oppression.  If they weren't pricks to start with there,d be nothing to respond to.

[Shiranu]

If you are a public figure, or just a representative of any organization, and you promote any views of bigotry (be it racism, homophobia, whatever) that your organization is against and/or makes your organization look bad, your boss has grounds to fire you. That is how it works. If you have a problem with that take it up with the business owners that care about their companies' reputations.

I don't see yall getting upset if she had made anti-atheist or anti-gay slurs and the company sacked her, so why do anti-black slurs get a pass?

That said, it was multiple allegations besides just the use of the N-word that put her in a bad light.

[hillbillyatheist]

Responding to someone's racism isn't fear nor oppression.  If they weren't pricks to start with there,d be nothing to respond to.

I had neighbors when I lived in Ada who referred to blacks as niggers and asians as gooks, and mexicans as beaners.


but they also helped me out when I needed it. clearly not the act fo evil monsters. racists like anybody else are not one dimensional characters. These neighbors had very wrong beliefs but they also had good ones too like helping out neighbors.

That said, there is a difference between responding to a racists beliefs, say with the socratic method, and debate, vs screaming obscenities at them, suing them or costing them their jobs, and seeing them as evil one dimensional characters.

when I was a kid I used the phrase "indian giver." one day somebody set me straight on why thats a bad thing to say, and I stopped. now imagine if instead I had said it on the job and lost it, and wound up homeless, instead of somebody simply explaining to me why thats a bad phrase.

There's a difference between reacting to and overreacting to something.

I can see it now. one day I get lucky and become a folk musician super star.
then it comes out that as a kid I sad words like faggot, indian givers, got gyped etc and then I will be forever doomed for all times.

Even if I admit its wrong and apologize profusely, over and over, it won't matter.

because thats how we do it in the land of the free! LOL

[hillbillyatheist]

If you are a public figure, or just a representative of any organization, and you promote any views of bigotry (be it racism, homophobia, whatever) that your organization is against and/or makes your organization look bad, your boss has grounds to fire you. That is how it works. If you have a problem with that take it up with the business owners that care about their companies' reputations.

I don't see yall getting upset if she had made anti-atheist or anti-gay slurs and the company sacked her, so why do anti-black slurs get a pass?

That said, it was multiple allegations besides just the use of the N-word that put her in a bad light.

She wasn't promoting racism. it just came out that in the past she said racist things in private. if she was on her cook show saying bad things about blacks, I'd see it differently.
not to mention as I've said before, she supported Obama, and likes Oprah so its not as simple as "yep she's in the klan, ban her for life"

what about assholes like Hannity who every night promote racist views? why isn't his ass being shitcanned?

now I'll say she ain't too bright by some of the shit she's said, but take a look at this video.
apparently she donates to black groups, supports Obama and has a black guy thats like her son. so even if she still harbors some racist attitudes under the surface, clearly she's working on them and isn't the grand dragon, people think she is.

[youtube:1zjzqssb]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5HDsympiE[/youtube:1zjzqssb]

[WitchSabrina]

But my issue is, do all of these "elements" bother you more than the racism? Because that certainly seems true of way too many people I've seen talking about this.

It becomes more about "Well, what am *I* allowed to say? What if I lose *my* job?" Is it really that precarious of a situation that you don't know how not to say racist things, really? People get all anxious when they see the "crucifixion" of Paula Deen and start drawing conclusions about their station in life -- seeing her as a direct cautionary tale (of course; if you're white and she's white, you must automatically have tons in common) -- than how her words in a public arena, around her black employees on a regular basis, affect them.

But it IS a precarious situation, because we aren't just talking about losing your livelihood for saying the word nigger. We are talking about an entire culture that has come to look upon the ruination of a person for holding certain views  be they racist, sexist, unpatriotic, whatever (and daring to express them in our supposedly open society) as a good thing! It is becoming acceptable that a person's life be wrecked in retribution for an unpopular utterance. Feelings and sensibilities are being valued above the literal, physical well being of people.

And just to drive this home, because its something I think people who discuss this issue never really allow themselves to think about, some people who lose their jobs CANT GET ANOTHER ONE. Not only is the economy shit right now, making it even harder than normal, but these people lost their jobs over a social blunder which serves as another barrier against employment. We are talking about denying people the ability to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads because of something they said one time. We are talking about some kids not being able to go to college because the fund was used up trying to stay off the street for 2-3 years while mom or dad were trying to get another job.

This is real fucking shit happening. Real consequences, and devastating ones. Consequences that hit hard not just the person who said the wrong thing, but everyone relying on that person for financial support. All because they said something someone found offensive and society had to have its pound of flesh.

If you want to convince me that this is a rational, reasonable reaction to offense you're going to have to do better than that.

So she should get a pass for uttering a bad word and let's just sweep that paying white employees More than black under the rug. We should just say "oh well....she doesn't mean anything by that" when she wants to promote parties where only whites are guests and only blacks are the servers.... and it's just fine for her to call one of her black employees "my little monkey"?????   That's all just fine in your book?  It's not fine in my opinion.  But hey.... no biggie..... just my opinion.  I'll keep explaining this bullshit attitude to my grandkids forever.  We'd not Paula to not kill us all with butter and get filthy rich doing so.  Sure.  Why not?

[Princess Megatron]

Am I literally just crazy for thinking it shouldn't be that hard not to say the N-word?

Again, please tell me how more or less going out of your way to say an offensive racial slur (it's not like people are being fired for accidentally saying a common word like "chair" in a racist way) is any different from cursing your boss out -- an act for which most people wouldn't disagree that it's reasonable for someone to be fired.

If you honestly can't restrain yourself in either situation, I can't feel much sympathy for you.

[WitchSabrina]

Am I literally just crazy for thinking it shouldn't be that hard not to say the N-word?

Again, please tell me how more or less going out of your way to say an offensive racial slur (it's not like people are being fired for accidentally saying a common word like "chair" in a racist way) is any different from cursing your boss out -- an act for which most people wouldn't disagree that it's reasonable for someone to be fired.

If you honestly can't restrain yourself in either situation, I can't feel much sympathy for you.

Thank you.  It is 2013 is it not?

[hillbillyatheist]

So she should get a pass for uttering a bad word

in private? yes absolutely. if she was on her show saying nigger, I'd feel differently.

 

and let's just sweep that paying white employees More than black under the rug.

no if these allegations turn out to be true, then we can deal with that then. if I'm not mistaken, its still in court. this means she's only accused of that. let the facts bear themselves out in court and a verdict be rendered before handing down any sentences.

being penalized for merely being accused of a crime, is a very bad precedent. If she's guilty of that, then she must pay for it. but only if she is deemed guilty by the court.  

We should just say "oh well....she doesn't mean anything by that" when she wants to promote parties where only whites are guests and only blacks are the servers.... and it's just fine for her to call one of her black employees "my little monkey"?????   That's all just fine in your book?

now where did I say that? quote me. I've clearly said that racist views are bullshit, harmful and should be challenged.

[WitchSabrina]

She blubbering to Oprah will be soooo  phoney. So very phoney. But Oprah will be gracious and  maybe smack her back in the blue room.

[Nonsensei]

Wow its really hard to get through to you two. Let me see if I can be as concise as possible.

Peoples lives getting ruined over something they once said is WRONG.

[hillbillyatheist]

Am I literally just crazy for thinking it shouldn't be that hard not to say the N-word?

from my understanding she said it in the 80's. and in private no less. She wasn't on her show last week talking about jigaboos.

I should say for the record that I do not think its right to call black people niggers.

just in case anybody gets the idea I think otherwise. I've never made the case that was alright, but since apparently I'm being taken as saying racist views are just fine, I want this cleared up, now.

racist views must be challenged.  are we all clear on that?

Again, please tell me how more or less going out of your way to say an offensive racial slur (it's not like people are being fired for accidentally saying a common word like "chair" in a racist way) is any different from cursing your boss out -- an act for which most people wouldn't disagree that it's reasonable for someone to be fired.

If you honestly can't restrain yourself in either situation, I can't feel much sympathy for you.

let me ask a question. how do you hope to change racists minds, if they simply learn to hide them for fear of things like losing their jobs and simply express those views in secret or using code words?

as opposed to having their views dissected by debate to show them clearly how dumb they are?