How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?

[Mike Cl]

There is no possible way I could have understood that.

Yeah, I guess not.  Not many baseball fans prowling this board. :)

[fencerider]

I stand corrected

Isaiah 46: 9-10 no
Isaiah 40: 13-14 no
Psalm 139:4 no
Psalm 139:13 no
Psalm 139:15-16 no
Job 21:22 no
1 Chronicles 28:9 no
Job 37:16 maybe
Psalm 33:13-15 no
Romans 11:13 no
Hebrews 4:13
Luke 12:7 no
1 John 3:20 yes
Mathew 10:29-30 no
Psalm 147:4-5 yes
Genesis 45:5 no
Proverbs 15:3 no
1 Peter 1:20 no
Isaiah 7:14 no

[Mike Cl]

Actually, all that Pops has been saying is that he realizes his 'truth' is totally subjective.  All of his 'proofs' are subjective as well.  His subjective proofs has proven to him that all that he has stated is true and proven--to him.  And he cannot prove that to anybody else. 

Trying to dissuade him of that set of beliefs is impossible, for all of his beliefs are subjective and will not change unless he decides to change.  Facts and reasons have no impact.

[popsthebuilder]

Actually, all that Pops has been saying is that he realizes his 'truth' is totally subjective.  All of his 'proofs' are subjective as well.  His subjective proofs has proven to him that all that he has stated is true and proven--to him.  And he cannot prove that to anybody else. 

Trying to dissuade him of that set of beliefs is impossible, for all of his beliefs are subjective and will not change unless he decides to change.  Facts and reasons have no impact.

In actuality the truth I am generally referring to pertains to all.

[SGOS]

Not many baseball fans prowling this board. :)

The last big league player I actually knew about was Ken Griffey Jr.  And I only knew about him because of a movie, Summer Catch, with Freddie Prinze Jr.  How long has it been since Freddie Prinze Jr has even been in a movie?  Not being a big fan of baseball, I still thoroughly enjoyed that move, and even bought it for my collection. 

A young pitcher on a feeder team with a hot fastball, constantly screws up in tight situations, because he has emotional issues, but with the support of his new love, Jessica Biel, back when she was totally the hottest babe on the planet, gets over his problems and is offered a job with the Phillies, where he gets his debut on the mound. 

All his friends back in his old haunt are watching him breathlessly at the bar.  Of course he finds himself in a tight situation as a relief pitcher, and the first hitter he has to face is Ken Griffey Jr.  It's the end of the movie, so the whole plot leads up to this point, and you're on the edge of your seat in anticipation.  His first pitch is steaming fast ball, which Griffey knocks out of the park as Prinze stands there helplessly watching the ball sail over his head.  But he shrugs it off with a smile as the announcer says, "Welcome to the big leagues, Newbie."  And the movie ends with all his friends back home cheering wildly over his first performance because everyone knows he's going to be OK.

Yeah, it sounds schmaltzy, but I loved it.

[Mike Cl]

In actuality the truth I am generally referring to pertains to all.

What does that mean?

[popsthebuilder]

What does that mean?

We are all connected.

There is One Spirit of life; One Creator. Though the things I know to be true are a result of things I experienced personally; they are also reiterated and substantiated in multiple ways and do pertain to all.

[Hakurei Reimu]

What does that mean?

Pops can't distinguish between words written on a page and how the universe actually works. Pages of the bible are offered up as proof of God's omniscience, even though a real proof would involve knowing everything about the real world. And what happens when you test that knowledge against the real world? You get lolfests like the one God gave Job, shutting up the seas with doors and other howlers.

For someone who is supposedly omniscient, God wouldn't pass a high school science exam. Or indeed a sixth grade science test.

We are all connected.

Yep. If I punch you in the nose, you walk away with a bloody nose. Doesn't take a god to tell you that, though.

There is One Spirit of life; One Creator. Though the things I know to be true are a result of things I experienced personally; they are also reiterated and substantiated in multiple ways and do pertain to all.

Tripe. What you "experienced" was a typical christian upbringing that programmed you to see god everywhere, even if he wasn't. Your faulty pattern recognition does not constitute truth.

[Mike Cl]

We are all connected.

There is One Spirit of life; One Creator. Though the things I know to be true are a result of things I experienced personally; they are also reiterated and substantiated in multiple ways and do pertain to all.

Yes, we are all connected--without a doubt.  Yes, your truths are true for you--subjectively.  And they pertain to all in your belief system, subjectively.  Your personal truths are not mine.

[SGOS]

My neighbor started in on the "we are all connected" bullshit.  Actually it was, "Everything is connected."  I didn't say anything, and I certainly doubt that I gave any indication of my thoughts, and then he added, "You know that," like I was supposed to automatically agree.  However, what was really odd about it was that whether or not everything is connected had nothing to do with his religious assertions.

I suppose I should have stopped him and explained what a non-sequitur was or given him a quick mini-course in logic, but I just wrote it off as a waste of time.  Plus, I didn't want to teach him another logical fallacy he could use in his reasoning process.  He was already handicapped enough.

[Unbeliever]

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds - Emerson

Why misquote? You know as well as I do that he said a "foolish consistency":

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. â€" 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' â€" Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

[Unbeliever]

As far as illusion goes, that leads nowhere except nihilism.

So what? What's so terrible about nihilism?

[popsthebuilder]

Pops can't distinguish between words written on a page and how the universe actually works. Pages of the bible are offered up as proof of God's omniscience, even though a real proof would involve knowing everything about the real world. And what happens when you test that knowledge against the real world? You get lolfests like the one God gave Job, shutting up the seas with doors and other howlers.

For someone who is supposedly omniscient, God wouldn't pass a high school science exam. Or indeed a sixth grade science test.
Yep. If I punch you in the nose, you walk away with a bloody nose. Doesn't take a god to tell you that, though.
Tripe. What you "experienced" was a typical christian upbringing that programmed you to see god everywhere, even if he wasn't. Your faulty pattern recognition does not constitute truth.

Don't assume things please

I was a very sincere atheist for most of my life. believe it or not. I don't care. Just because one cannot understand the real meanings behind scripture doesn't mean it is actual nonsense; just that you lack the capacity to understand it. I don't use scripture for the basis of my beliefs; I started reading them a couple years after my receiving faith in GOD; and they reiterated and verified what was already known. You are speaking from absolute ignorance in reference to the source of my belief and my upbringing.

Isn't that sorta like grasping for straws? And why? What is the point? Being ignorant of a thing is all good and fine, but just shooting in the dark is pretty damn dumb. I recall you being more poised than that.

[Baruch]

My neighbor started in on the "we are all connected" bullshit.  Actually it was, "Everything is connected."  I didn't say anything, and I certainly doubt that I gave any indication of my thoughts, and then he added, "You know that," like I was supposed to automatically agree.  However, what was really odd about it was that whether or not everything is connected had nothing to do with his religious assertions.

I suppose I should have stopped him and explained what a non-sequitur was or given him a quick mini-course in logic, but I just wrote it off as a waste of time.  Plus, I didn't want to teach him another logical fallacy he could use in his reasoning process.  He was already handicapped enough.

Unity of some sort is fundamental to monotheism, and to unified science.  In religion this unity is usually personal, and in unified science it is impersonal.

For me there is macrocosm, and microcosm.  Each person is a microcosm.  And personage isn't limited to humans, but all humans are persons.  All persons are interconnected.  This interconnection is the macrocosm.  G-d is macrocosm.  Jesus says, where two or more are gathered in my name (power) there am I.  But the point of science is analysis, which involves abstraction and atomization (both conceptually and literally).

Social science ... per its name, is pure individualism, where everyone is at war with everyone else.  A group of individuals with no community.  Synthesis is the opposite of analysis.  An artist paints a painting.  He is doing synthesis.  The art critic, who couldn't paint a barn, analyses the ouvre of the painter.  Those who can ... synthesize.  Those who can't ... analyze.  But both are apes, who either finger paint or not.

[Baruch]

What does that mean?

Per you, there is no objective meaning.  So what did it mean to you?  Or are you simply baiting Pops?  When you have nothing to say for yourself?