50 killed, 200 Injured in Las Vegas Shooting

[Baruch]

They claim they need protection from our government, or to protect their families, but I don't know what their real motivations are. I know that after these kinds of tragic mass murders the sales of guns always go way up. People manage to make good money from bad actions. I don't know why so many guns are needed by anyone, though, especially the military type of guns that are so prevalent these days. The GOP want to legalize silencers, too, but it's all insanity if you ask me.

But then, I'm a flaming liberal - so what do I know?

Yes, every time the government acts stupid, more Republicans and gun nuts are born.  Kind of like the inverse of what that angel was doing in It's A Wonderful Life.

[Baruch]

Come to think of it, what's all the issue with licensing guns

When you ban the government from having guns ... I will be satisfied.  Until then, not that I want to fight any government ... you can go right to King George III and tell him to kiss my colonial ass.  Concord and Lexington were about gun control in general, but specifically independent colonial militia not being under lock and key of central authority (they were under local authority).  Today in the National Guard, the government has what it wanted in London in 1775 ... all government guns are kept locked, except when lawfully issued, and all National Guard are federalized since the Civil Rights riot era.  This is not true in Switzerland which is perhaps the only free country in Europe.  Militiamen keep their government arms at home.  Their government trust them, and they trust their government.  That has never been true in the US.  There is no reason for the government to trust the citizens, nor vice versa.  229 years of experience with the current government says ... anarchism is a viable alternative, if necessary.

[baronvonrort]

Why does the average person need any of the following: fully automatic weapon; magazines or clips that hold more than 10 rounds; unregistered weapon; why not licence them all?  Those rules seem only sensible to me.  I'm sure others could be added.  And allowing any and all weapons to have silencers only makes them more dangerous.  Why would the average person need a silenced weapon?

From what I understand full auto have been heavily regulated since 1986 and very expensive to legally own, I have also been informed no crimes have been done in the US with legally owned full auto, if this offender had an illegal full auto would any more laws have prevented this?
We had a police officer killed with a full auto AK47 recently they have never been for sale here and full auto has been illegal for over 50 years.

In Australia we can have 15 round magazines for rimfire so that's still 5 more than you propose, feral pest control does require larger magazine capacity even with our strict laws we can still have unlimited capacity in some cases.

How would Registration have made any difference with this latest shooting, he passed background checks was not known to police for anything more than traffic offence and had no mental health history, registration is something people mention to appear to be doing something yet both Canada and New Zealand have abolished gun registration in the last 30 years saying it cannot prevent or solve gun crime it's a waste of money and perhaps that money would be better spent putting more police on the street.
Our Police minister has said recently greater than 97% of all gun crime in Australia is done with unregistered firearms.

Licensing gun owners is a good idea you need to stop the mentally ill and criminals from having guns, in this latest incident it's likely the offender would have been able to get a license.

It's easier to get a sound moderator in New Zealand compared to the USA, NZ allows all the scary black semi auto rifles with sound moderators so why have they had no mass shooting since 1997?
It's considered rude to fire a gun without a sound moderator in NZ.

A crude cheap and effective sound moderator can be made from a car oil filter try youtube, why are criminals not using them?

Here is a study on sound moderators by Edith Cowan University it's worth reading.
http://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1857&context=ecuworks2011

[baronvonrort]

I don't see a feasible reason for someone to own more than a few weapons unlicensed. I don't see a feasible reason for people to own semi-or fully automatic weapons unlicensed. Fully automatic doesn't even make sense for a citizen. Hunting a deer does not mean mowing it down with assault fire. There's a difference between bearing arms and bearing an arsenal. And there's no reason to allow drum roll magazines for AR-15's or silencers. A silencer is made for the same reason a .38 is, not for hunting, but to kill people.

I like guns, they're fascinating and I watch a youtube channel where a guy has a .50 cal sniper rifle.
There's a reason his is licensed.

Guns are tools for some and toys for others.

A .22lr is good for small feral pests at closer range, a .223 is good for foxes rabbits and wild dogs, we need at least a .243 for feral pigs and goats in Australia and a minimum of .270 for Deer, throw in a shotgun for ducks and farmers here can have a pistol so there is 6 guns as a minimum for our range of pests.

You can only shoot one gun at a time so it really makes no difference on how many you have.

I agree with full auto not being needed, ammo costs make them very expensive to shoot. Semi auto are great for hunting it allows a follow up shot if the first one doesn't do the job.

In most places the AR15 is illegal to use for Deer hunting as the .223 is considered to small to be effective, probably best for Coyote and smaller animals.

Hiram Percy Maxim invented mufflers for cars and sound moderators for firearms, one of these is mandatory just about everywhere yet the other invention strikes fear into the bedwetting gun grabbers.

New Zealand is probably the easiest place to get a sound moderator for a scary black semi auto why are the criminals there not using them?

Please read the study in my previous post from Edith Cowan University on Sound Moderators for firearms and educate yourself.

[Cavebear]

I want to get cynical, but it won't do much good. I definitely think twice before going to any large gatherings of people. It's not just feeling paranoid. I really don't like crowded places safe or not.

That way lies their success.  When the change how we live, they win.

[PopeyesPappy]

From what I understand full auto have been heavily regulated since 1986 and very expensive to legally own, I have also been informed no crimes have been done in the US with legally owned full auto, if this offender had an illegal full auto would any more laws have prevented this?
We had a police officer killed with a full auto AK47 recently they have never been for sale here and full auto has been illegal for over 50 years.

In Australia we can have 15 round magazines for rimfire so that's still 5 more than you propose, feral pest control does require larger magazine capacity even with our strict laws we can still have unlimited capacity in some cases.

How would Registration have made any difference with this latest shooting, he passed background checks was not known to police for anything more than traffic offence and had no mental health history, registration is something people mention to appear to be doing something yet both Canada and New Zealand have abolished gun registration in the last 30 years saying it cannot prevent or solve gun crime it's a waste of money and perhaps that money would be better spent putting more police on the street.
Our Police minister has said recently greater than 97% of all gun crime in Australia is done with unregistered firearms.

Licensing gun owners is a good idea you need to stop the mentally ill and criminals from having guns, in this latest incident it's likely the offender would have been able to get a license.

It's easier to get a sound moderator in New Zealand compared to the USA, NZ allows all the scary black semi auto rifles with sound moderators so why have they had no mass shooting since 1997?
It's considered rude to fire a gun without a sound moderator in NZ.

A crude cheap and effective sound moderator can be made from a car oil filter try youtube, why are criminals not using them?

Here is a study on sound moderators by Edith Cowan University it's worth reading.
http://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1857&context=ecuworks2011

Fully automatic weapons, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, weapons with rifled barrels with a bore greater than .50 caliber and suppressors have been heavily regulated in the US since 1934 not 1986. All they did in 1986 was close the civilian registry to newly manufactured machine guns.

[PopeyesPappy]

I do like rifles.  I could easily see myself firing them at a range.  (Loved them in the military--shot expert with a M-13; m-16; and a .38 police special.)  At that range using a suppressor makes sense.  On a pistol for the average guy, (a suppressor can easily be added quickly and are easy to conceal until then.)  I had not realized they were allowed for hunting in 35 states.  I simply think they should be regulated in some way. 

It is my understanding that the regulations concerning suppressors currently being considered by congress would remove suppressors from the NFA registry and put them in the same category as other non-NFA firearms. If so you would still have to pass a background check to go to the store and buy one.

[Cavebear]

Fully automatic weapons, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, weapons with rifled barrels with a bore greater than .50 caliber and suppressors have been heavily regulated in the US since 1934 not 1986. All they did in 1986 was close the civilian registry to newly manufactured machine guns.

There are technical ways around semi's to make them effectively full autos.  A "bump stock" uses the recoil of one bullet to load the next, for example. 

[PopeyesPappy]

There are technical ways around semi's to make them effectively full autos.  A "bump stock" uses the recoil of one bullet to load the next, for example. 

It is probable the Las Vegas gunman used at least one weapon equipped with a bump stock to commit the massacre there. Some of the pictures that have been leaked show a rifle equipped with one. There may have been more than one rifle equipped with a bump stock. He may have used other devices or illegally modified ones to achieve high rates of fire. We would probably know if he had obtained fully automatic rifles via legal means by now so it is pretty safe to assume he hadn't.

The bump stocks are allowed because they don't meet the legal definition of fully automatic, but yes the damn things should probably be illegal or at the very least be controlled in the same way other automatic weapons are.

[Cavebear]

It is probable the Las Vegas gunman used at least one weapon equipped with a bump stock to commit the massacre there. Some of the pictures that have been leaked show a rifle equipped with one. There may have been more than one rifle equipped with a bump stock. He may have used other devices or illegally modified ones to achieve high rates of fire. We would probably know if he had obtained fully automatic rifles via legal means by now so it is pretty safe to assume he hadn't.

The bump stocks are allowed because they don't meet the legal definition of fully automatic, but yes the damn things should probably be illegal or at the very least be controlled in the same way other automatic weapons are.

Thank you.  Now how do you feel about very large magazine clips?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What hazards do you see with suppressors?

[Cavebear]

What hazards do you see with suppressors?

If you mean "silencing mechanisms", yes.  Mostly that it disguises where firing is coming from in crimes.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If you mean "silencing mechanisms", yes.  Mostly that it disguises where firing is coming from in crimes.

Numbers on suppressors used in that fashion?

[Cavebear]

Numbers on suppressors used in that fashion?

Total numbers are uncertain, as the existence of silencers on weapons used in crimes are not always specifically noted.  But I can offer the following.  I apologize for the length:

The study documents crimes involving silencers, both legal and illegal, including the following:

•    In February 2013, Christopher Dorner targeted Southern California law enforcement officers and their families, murdering four people and wounding several others. Dorner used a silencer on his 9mm semiautomatic Glock pistol.

•    In January 2016, Samy Mohamed Hamzeh was arrested and charged after acquiring automatic firearms and a silencer in furtherance of a terror plot to commit a mass shooting at a Masonic Center in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

•    In October 2015, gang member Xia Lin was convicted of murdering a restaurant owner in Alhambra, California, using a handgun outfitted with a silencer.

•    In March 2015, Robert Dahl fatally shot and killed Emad Tawfilis, an investor in his Napa Valley winery, using a handgun outfitted with a silencer.

•    In October 2015, eight men were charged in a federal indictment in Sacramento with unlawfully engaging in the business of manufacturing and dealing in firearms, including assault rifles and silencers lacking serial numbers.

•    Israel Keyes, a confessed serial killer who murdered up to 12 victims, used a gun equipped with a silencer to kill at least one of his victims in Vermont in June 2011.

In its conclusion, the report warns: “Since 1934, the strict regulations contained in the National Firearms Act have worked to limit crimes committed with silencers. Recognizing this, silencers should remain regulated under the NFA. Making these weapons available to the general public with far fewer restrictions will ensure that their use in crime will increase.”

The full report, including gun industry catalog images of silencers and statistics on the number of registered silencers in the United States, can be found here: http://www.vpc.org/studies/silencers.pdf

[PopeyesPappy]

Thank you.  Now how do you feel about very large magazine clips?

Define very large capacity. In some of the shooting sports I participate in 20 to 30 round magazines are standard capacity. My 140 mm long 9mm STI mags hold 23 rounds. Like most people in the sport I use 30 round mags for my 5.56 AR, and on those rare occasions when I have used a 308 the magazines hold 20 rounds.

I'd rather not see these types of magazines outright banned because I have legitimate uses for them that don't include mass killing. Not to mention the fact that I don't own enough limited capacity magazines to compete in a match. Given the current state of affairs though I could probably get behind some type of legislation that makes them more difficult to obtain. Background checks, maybe even licensing for people that have a verifiable reason for having them.

Judging from the photographs Las Vegas shooter had a bunch of what look like Surefire 100 round magazines. They could be 60 rounders though it's hard to tell for sure from the pictures. I've counted at least 19 of the Surefire magazines, at least one thirty round magazine and what looks like a 40 rounder of some type. If they are the 100 rounders that's almost 2000 rounds of loaded magazines, and I'm sure I haven't seen all of them that were in the hotel suite.

It wouldn't really bother me to see AR type magazines with a capacity in excess of 30 rounds banned though because their practicality in shooting sports is questionable due to their length.