No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

[Baruch]

Yes. Good show old chap. *nods knowingly*

guys, I'm typing in a font outside baruch's visual spectrum; help me. I didn't get a single word of that!

I have x-ray vision as a mutant.  But I promise to not put on spandex and fly around with my undies on the outside ;-)

And are you familiar with regular email that isn't person to person, but to a group list?  Maybe not.

[Mr.Obvious]

I have x-ray vision as a mutant.  But I promise to not put on spandex and fly around with my undies on the outside ;-)

And are you familiar with regular email that isn't person to person, but to a group list?  Maybe not.

The group mail thing is the least of my confusion, oh masked philospher ;-)

[Baruch]

The group mail thing is the least of my confusion, oh masked philospher ;-)

Yea, that little mask I wear, like Green Hornet, really hides my identity ;-)  Nobody can tell I am a vigilante DA.  You live in a funny little country ... so confusion will come natural to you ;-))  If you were from Andorra, where do they go for tax evasion, Lichtenstein?

[Xerographica]

It would be an interesting experiment, having Internet enabled direct democracy.  I think nobody can imagine what that would be like ... it might be better than what we got.

We'd all be as happy as a kid in a candy store?  Why is the kid in a candy store so happy?  He is so happy because there's a wide variety of affordable products that closely match his preferences.  The considerable relevance of the supply is the result of countless kids over time being free to choose which products they spend their money on.  They've had the freedom to use their own money to communicate how closely a product matches their preferences. 

Personally, I detest candy corns... so I don't buy them.  But I do really like sesame seed candy.  So I buy them. 

So it's simply a matter of using our money to communicate how beneficially other people are behaving.  Because... nobody is a mind-reader.  This is just as true for sex as it is for candy.  When you're having sex you gotta communicate what works and what doesn't.  Except, if your partner is doing something that works, you don't pay them money in order to positively reinforce their behavior.  If your partner is doing something that really works... you don't pay them even more money. 

If your partner is doing something that really works then of course it would be pretty awkward to stop and get out your wallet to communicate just how beneficial their behavior is.  But what if you didn't have to stop and get out your wallet?  What if the payment was automatically made?  What if your partner instantly knew exactly how beneficial you found their behavior? 

The best "sex" between consumers and producers is a function of the best communication. 

If we allocated less money providing a free lunch to corporations, including the MIC ... maybe the rest of the world would have less reason to want to kill us, and we wouldn't need as much defense.  How one sees that work out, is a direct test of cynicism.

The US obviously doesn't have a monopoly on good writers.  Same thing with musicians.  So it would be dumb if Americans could only use their money to positively reinforce talent in the US.  The same is just as true for public goods as it is for private goods.  Taxpayers should be able to shop in any country's public sector.  I'm pretty sure that the demand for peace will be far greater than the demand for war.  Countries that facilitate peace will get far more funding than countries that facilitate war.  As a result, peaceful nations will be far better funded and have more than enough resources to put an end to all conflicts. 

I have no problem with deviants, hence being here among the "bohemians".  in religion, the only people who make a new, living religion, are the heretics.  Successful challenge to existing scientific paradigm (much harder job) also is the only way progress is made.  But people don't want to work for it, they want to be declared winners just for participating, and get gold stars.  Yes, be deviant, but not too public about it.  In Japan, as elsewhere, they have a saying ... the nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

Einstein defined "insanity" as doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result.  If we want different results then we gotta do different things. 

From my perspective the problem is that people are ignorant.  Thank goodness that ignorance can be cured.  Unfortunately, I haven't had much luck getting people to join my religion.  All Jesus said was, "Come with me and I'll make you fishers of men!"... and voila!  He had 12 disciples.  I say, "Progress depends on difference!" and voila!  No disciples! 

To be charismatic is one thing.  To understand things is another.  To correctly understand things is another. 

[Cavebear]

The "ignore" button, is located in the top right corner of your frontal lobe. Just don't read his posts, or at least don't respond. If you feed the stray cat, it will keep coming back to your door.

Found it, thanks. 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Word Salad generators aren't all that rare.

[Baruch]

Word Salad generators aren't all that rare.

Salad is healthy for you ;-)  Some people are dyslexic ... others don't have that excuse ;-)

Xero ... Socrates agrees with you.  He says if people get past ignorance, then they will automatically follow the correct path, which they only avoid out of ignorance (of the correct path).  The problem is getting the other Greeks to agree that you shouldn't be executed for blasphemy and corrupting the young ;-(  Socrates informed them of the truth, at his trial, but giving correct information to ignoramuses .. wasn't sufficient in his case.

[Jason78]

We'd all be as happy as a kid in a candy store?  Why is the kid in a candy store so happy?  He is so happy because there's a wide variety of affordable products that closely match his preferences.  The considerable relevance of the supply is the result of countless kids over time being free to choose which products they spend their money on.  They've had the freedom to use their own money to communicate how closely a product matches their preferences. 

I need a new kidney,  so I think all my tax money should be spent on harvesting the organs of felons.

What?   It's my money!

[Baruch]

I need a new kidney,  so I think all my tax money should be spent on harvesting the organs of felons.

What?   It's my money!

Ends justify means ... let the bloodletting begin ;-(  Or you could always contact the people who draw the cartoons about the Mafia harvesting organs, maybe they do, and Guido can give you a deal of a lifetime!

[Xerographica]

I need a new kidney,  so I think all my tax money should be spent on harvesting the organs of felons.

What?   It's my money!

Just because you make a donation to the Red Cross doesn't necessarily mean that you get a big box of disaster relief.  Of course, the more people who donate to the Red Cross... the larger the supply of disaster relief. 

A prison isn't generally considered a market.  I mean, prisoners can certainly produce shanks and sell them for cigarettes.  But it's not like you can visit a prison website and buy a homemade shank directly from a prisoner for $1 dollar. 

A school isn't generally considered a market.  It's not like you can visit a school website and buy an original painting directly from a student for $1 dollar. 

This website isn't generally considered a market.  Sure, you can paypal me $1 dollar for this thread that I produced.  But it's not necessarily the case that members pay each other for threads. 

A flea market is obviously considered a market.  You can go there and buy a painting for $1 dollar? 

A farmer's market is obviously considered a market.  You can go there and buy an artichoke for less than $1 dollar. 

The market is the opportunity to use our money to identify and positively reinforce beneficial behavior.  So what would happen if schools and prisons and this website were markets? 

Personally, I'm definitely not going to pay a prisoner to produce a shank.  I'm also not going to pay prisoners to lift weights.  And I'm definitely not going to pay some kid to memorize every president.  But, there's at least a gazillion things that I would be willing to pay students and prisoners to do. 

For sure the logistics would be a bit tricky... especially with prisons.  But there's quite a few things that prisoners already have the opportunity to produce. 

The logistics are a moot point if it's not understood what the benefit would be of making it really easy for consumers to use their cash to identify and positively reinforce beneficial behavior. 

[Baruch]

The US is a police state, so is the UK.  Everyone is a prisoner here.  But not all of us are in the Max, most of us are in Juvi.  The guards though, want to be trillionaires so they keep shaking down the prisoners for shanks and smokes.

[Hydra009]

The market is the opportunity to use our money to identify and positively reinforce beneficial behavior.  So what would happen if schools and prisons and this website were markets?

And I'm definitely not going to pay some kid to memorize every president.

Well, there you go.  Instead of people pitching in and society at large funding education - even people who don't have any kids - little Timmy (the 12-year-old parasite) doesn't get a single red cent from the generous, noble libertarian.  And thus we get a libertarian utopia free of want and misery, somehow.

[Xerographica]

Well, there you go.  Instead of people pitching in and society at large funding education - even people who don't have any kids - little Timmy (the 12-year-old parasite) doesn't get a single red cent from the generous, noble libertarian.  And thus we get a libertarian utopia free of want and misery, somehow.

Timmy wouldn't get a penny from libertarians... because...?

A. Timmy didn't do anything that's worth a penny
B.  Libertarians are free-riders

Which one is it? 

If it's "A" then this has absolutely nothing to do with libertarianism.  If it's "B" then I'm pretty sure that libertarians do not have a monopoly on the free-rider problem.

My guess is that you have this mindset that people can't learn through the process of helping others.  Everybody has lots of problems.  There's no reason that students and prisoners can't be given the opportunity to help solve people's problems and learn important skills in the process. 

"We are students of words: we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation-rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Initiatives such as introducing technologies can give students more tools with which to create and problem-solve. Seeking out authentic audiences and providing real-world problems to investigate provides powerful motivation for students to produce quality work.” â€" MJ Farris

"They thrive when given the chance to connect what they’re learning with real-life situations, such as community service projects." - April Tibbles

"Working on a real-world problem definitely made us more enthusiastic." - Austin Zhang

"There is no task so small that it cannot be deemed prize worthy. Stanford University computer software pioneer Donald Knuth offers the “Knuth Reward Check”â€"a prize of $2.56â€"to the first person who reports an error in one of his 24 books on computer programming. Since 2001, he has written more than 2,000 checks." - Robert Lee Hotz

Students and prisoners obviously wouldn't need to earn a living.  But clearly they need help learning how to earn a living.  Earning a living involves helping people solve real-world problems. 

See my illustration in the OP?  In case you missed it, art is not my forte.  I'm sure that there are 1000s of students and prisoners who have far more artistic skills in their pinky finger than I have in my entire body.  There's no reason that I couldn't have offered a $5 dollar prize to whichever student or prisoner created the best illustration. 

In all cases it should be ridiculously easy for everybody to find and nurture talent in schools and prisons.  Because the idea that teachers and prison guards are going to be adequate at finding and nurturing all the talent is the primary reason that so many people are in prison in the first place.

[Hydra009]

Timmy wouldn't get a penny from libertarians... because...?

A. Timmy didn't do anything that's worth a penny
B.  Libertarians are free-riders

Which one is it?

B.  All of the benefits, none of the taxes.  Apparently, someone else will have to foot the bill.

You said it yourself.  Children wouldn't get a dime from you to learn basic civics.  What else can I call that but pure selfishness (and a horribly myopic one at that) presented as if were noble and virtuous?

[Xerographica]

B.  All of the benefits, none of the taxes.  Apparently, someone else will have to foot the bill.

You said it yourself.  Children wouldn't get a dime from you to learn basic civics.  What else can I call that but pure selfishness (and a horribly myopic one at that) presented as if were noble and virtuous?

My friend teaches 4th grade.  Her class has a blog... Classtopia.  How much are you willing to pay the first of her students who successfully memorizes the entire list of presidents?