Goddidit Vs Naturedidit

[Baruch]

Not sure what you're saying here, but it sounds like you're simply saying that if there were no men they wouldn't be written down.  Okay.  If there were no men, the effects of said laws would still be the same, though.

That is Plato answering the question, what is the sound of a Greek falling, if no one is around to hear?  Of course ... the Greek would hear, unless he was dead already.  What happens when there are no people ... isn't a part of human knowledge.  Dog or cat knowledge perhaps.  See ... everyone likes counterfactuals, even Zen Buddhists.

You and I might imagine immutable laws (which we don't know, we only have approximations) ... but I dare you to prove it in the absence of humanity (unless you are an alien of course).  That would be a paradox ... which goes back to Cretan liars ... and fantasists like Plato.

[Baruch]

That's not the same as a level-one multiverse. Though the "eternal return" seems plausible to me if the universe is repeated infinitely, as well as being spatially infinite.

But a level-one multiverse is bad poetry ;-)

[Baruch]

Yeah, some people can't bring themselves to use the name of God for fear of...something or other. Even though the word "God" is not even a name, but only, at best, a title. How could the creator of all of infinite reality be so mundane as to have a name in the first place? But I guess we can let Baruch have his God-fear if it makes him comfortable...

Not afraid of G-d ... we are made in G-d's evil image.  Demons like the heat of Hell.

[Baruch]

So, if no one knows what anything means, how do we even have a discussion at all? No one can say anything, because neither they nor anyone else knows what the hell they're talking about.

Good point, but not what I am talking about.  People make short assertions, without defining terms.  So it remains to be seen, if they know any definitions, or if they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Two dolphins were chatting while watching the humans.  Being rather progressive scientists they remarked "while is it true that they move their mouths and sounds come out, that isn't proof that they are communicating" (dolphins squeak at ultrasound frequencies, and we cannot ken when they experience, lacking dolphin physiology or cetacean brains)

[Baruch]

Nope, nothing in the least special about us. But not everything is possible - such as logically inconsistent things, like a square circle. I think what the universe is doing is bringing all potential conditions into actuality. Many of those can't come into actuality without beings like us being here to create them. We are the creators, not any God. We didn't create the universe, but we do create things that couldn't come into existence without us being here to make them.

My fingers are typing, I am not doing it ... blame my fingers, there is no person behind them!

[Baruch]

That takes us back to the old ' if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody to hear it does it make a sound?' question.  Supposed to be sage and all that.  Of course the sound waves are produced whether there are people there or not.  The physical laws of physics function whether or not there are people to notice it and figure them out.

We think that is true.  However you can't prove it without someone there to record it, naturally or artificially.  See David Hume.

[Unbeliever]

My fingers are typing, I am not doing it ... blame my fingers, there is no person behind them!

Yes, we've suspected that for some time.

[Baruch]

Yes, we've suspected that for some time.

Well that is just what an atheist would say.  Is anything behind your typing?  We are the same species.

[Unbeliever]

So you say. Prove it!

[Baruch]

So you say. Prove it!

If you are a reptile, a velociraptor ... did your mother lay an egg, or did you just lay an egg ;-))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6OEChj-UiI

I mentioned recently an on-line version of Eliza, the famous artificial rogerian psychotherapist ... it would be a hoot to put other people's posts in.  She said I was interesting.  Take that Seri, Cortana, Tay ... bitches!

[trdsf]

Nope, nothing in the least special about us. But not everything is possible - such as logically inconsistent things, like a square circle. I think what the universe is doing is bringing all potential conditions into actuality. Many of those can't come into actuality without beings like us being here to create them. We are the creators, not any God. We didn't create the universe, but we do create things that couldn't come into existence without us being here to make them.

Whence my clarification re: physically possible things even in an infinite universe.  And, I should be very surprised if we do turn out to live in an infinite universe anyway.

I don't think I can even go that far, about what the universe is doing.  I don't think it needs to do anything, other than exist, and be sufficiently large and in space and in time for sentience to arise somewhere.  Everything else is gravy.

[trdsf]

I also note you state everything as if its incontestably true. Are these statements you make fact or opinion?

I state that which is consistent with our current understanding of the universe.  You're the one who seems to think there's something special about it.

You pulled the one billion out of thin air and pretend its a scientific fact of some sort without calculating all the conditions for stars, galaxies and planets to occur. No one knows what the odds are that a universe exists in the first place do they?

No, I pulled a billion out of thin air to demonstrate the failure of your argument about "luck".  At no point did I ever state it was demonstrated fact, it was illustrative.  As I explained.  Not that you have demonstrated any ability at comprehending what you read, but I am obliged to try.

And the odds that a universe exists are no worse than 1:1.  Otherwise we wouldn't be here to discuss it.

One crazy reason would be because we don't know other universes exist. It appears you are making up conditions that suit you as you go along.

Not a bit.  Everything that's speculative has been labeled as speculative.  But again, you have a demonstrated ability to be unable to read for comprehension.

That sound you heard was my jaw dropping...

No doubt.  You have problems with reality.  That's why I didn't bother trying to explain the Higgs mechanism, I was already sure it was beyond you.

I'm done with the intercourse here.  Please feel free to go have intercourse with yourself.

[fencerider]

Drew went back to the computer model again. This time claiming that the theological model matches reality. Still have to make the connection between the model and the real universe.

[fencerider]

If you are observing simularities between a human created computer simulation and the real universe, you may create a hypothesis. But a hypothesis is not proof until proven. Hence, no backward compatible corollary.

[Baruch]

Drew went back to the computer model again. This time claiming that the theological model matches reality. Still have to make the connection between the model and the real universe.

A very small me can sail a very small boat, in a bottle ;-)