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Started by Marc, January 07, 2017, 06:47:55 PM

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trdsf

Quote from: Marc on January 08, 2017, 11:04:44 AM
Probably, an agnostic. I am going to read the Bible more like you guys said. I am also sorry about the poor grammar I'm only 15 and I don't really have a good grammar. I decided to become agnostic now, because right now I'm basically basing it on the church I go to that requires a 20$ offerings each person. That's really what irritates me because I thought offerings were to be anything. I feel that when I read the Bible more, I will get more educated on the Bible and probably become an atheist I'm unsure. Thanks for all the help!

Go you!  When I was 15 I was still a pretty devout Catholic, although I had trouble processing why, if the god we were taught about sees what's in our hearts and judges by that, it was necessary to deck out churches in silver and gold and all.  I mean, a quonset hut should have been good enough if it wasn't about the money.

As far as the bible goes, I recommend reading it as literature, not even explicitly looking for the logical, philosophical and/or factual faults.  Some bits of it are awful plods through minutiæ (like Numbers) but there is some soaring poetry in Psalms and Song of Solomon, and Revelation is somewhere between a fantasy masterpiece and an acid trip, and it reads well to a Grateful Dead space from the mid '70s.

Just avoid Paul, though for some fun online reading, look up 'where Paul contradicts Jesus' -- noting that Paulian teaching holds sway over the vast majority of xian churches, not Jesus'.

Anyway, welcome!
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Journey_To_Mars

Quote from: trdsf on January 10, 2017, 12:52:42 PM
Go you!  When I was 15 I was still a pretty devout Catholic, although I had trouble processing why, if the god we were taught about sees what's in our hearts and judges by that, it was necessary to deck out churches in silver and gold and all.  I mean, a quonset hut should have been good enough if it wasn't about the money.

As far as the bible goes, I recommend reading it as literature, not even explicitly looking for the logical, philosophical and/or factual faults.  Some bits of it are awful plods through minutiæ (like Numbers) but there is some soaring poetry in Psalms and Song of Solomon, and Revelation is somewhere between a fantasy masterpiece and an acid trip, and it reads well to a Grateful Dead space from the mid '70s.

Just avoid Paul, though for some fun online reading, look up 'where Paul contradicts Jesus' -- noting that Paulian teaching holds sway over the vast majority of xian churches, not Jesus'.

Anyway, welcome!

Reading it like a literary piece is a much better way to read the bible because you get to see in order of event how terrifying the entire Bible can actually be. Reading other religious texts after the fact is also good because at that point, you get to see similarities between them.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Baruch

Yes, religious texts are literature.  Maybe not everyone's favorite genre.  I read lots of things, not just religious things.  By reading literature (not watching animation or TV or ...) you use your mind to make pictures in your own head.  Your only iPod is your own psyche, the capital I.  Remember also, that biography and history aren't truth, that they are also branches of literature.  The living people are the Truth ... and no book can do them or us justice.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

Look at people like popsthebuilder guy, everything he reads he makes sure reinforces his fragile beliefs. Everything he has to study has already been approved for him. All his "evidence" has been curried to match the findings so there is no "regrettable" endings.

After reading the babble, you have to wonder where all the gods came from and why. Why and how is pretty easy to follow if you get into some early history. Places like Gobleki tepi have been around for over 8,000 years and is believed to be one of the first places on earth used for group worship. Why can be followed though the evolution of religion, cave drawings 35,000 years old suggest early animism, and we gradually graduated into totenism, the aborigines and american natives were untouched by other civilizations for tens of thousands of years and their "religions" remained static so we can pretty much see what they believed today as what they did thousands of years ago.

You can go further into the study of how and when the human starts to be cognizant and can begin to recognize reality and differentiate between what will happen and what should happen following normal processes. These studies done on children show us how our ancestors came to animism, how children attach humans emotions and personalities to things and at what ages they start to become "aware". We have pretty much the path of the how and why. Now add the size of the universe and our pitiful stature in our own galaxy let alone the universe, the idea of a grand wizard creating a universe but being stymied by a womans period is rather laughable, but it is really embarrassing that so many actually are so mentally weak as to find this a viable answer.

Go and find out for yourself. Nothing else will satisfy an intelligent person. Don't let your self be convinced by others like Pops did, follow the evidence, there is alot of it.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Journey_To_Mars

Who is this pops person you speak of? Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Baruch

Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Who is this pops person you speak of? Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.

Dog fail .. bad dog! (AITM).  His comment should have been in another string, not this one.  Popsthebuilder = Pops.

Yes, we never run of out things to learn.  One of my favorite things in life.  And often we get to relearn the same things over and over ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes,

I don't see it that way at all. The religious never find the final answer..they just make one up. All science does is process the information, and present the findings. Then the rest of the scientific community examine how it effects various fields. The religious see the findings and get together to find a way to make it fit their beliefs. Remember, there are a lot more religious people than non......therefore there is more money to be culled from the gullible. People like Ken Hamm make a lot of money thanks to this fact, whereas real scientists are content to seek the truth.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Journey_To_Mars

I'm just saying that once being religious myself and thinking, quite stupidly, that I had all the answer's, I can find it kind of disappointing knowing that I will never have all the answers. It is however, a lot more liberating knowing that I will never have all the answer's, and will always be able to questing the universe around us. The religious population, that's not going to change in size for a few more generations.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Hydra009

Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PMNot being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.
There is a certain freedom in knowing that there is always plenty left to explore.

Science is like a sailboat on the open ocean - you never know what new wonder will be encountered next.  True, it is dangerous, but it's the only path to new lands.  Religion is like a petty shepherd stuffing his flock into a cramped and filthy pen, fearful of losing sight of the shore and forcing himself to be content with the world he has always known.

Hijiri Byakuren

Never been a theist myself, Marc, but I think the "Why I Am No Longer Christian" series of videos would be of use to you. The series totals a couple hours, and the individual videos aren't particularly long.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

SGOS

Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Who is this pops person you speak of? Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.

I'm quite content not knowing that I am not all knowing, which is not quite the same thing as not knowing a specific answer to a specific question.  For example, "How did life begin?"  While I can accept my ignorance on that point, I would have to admit to a "subtle longing to know," but as Hydra points out, "there's a freedom in knowing there's so much more to learn."  And I would add that it's also inspiring to think about mankind's accomplishments, and all of the many things we have learned since we lived in caves.  It's quite stunning that man is actually capable of mustering the mental discipline and finding the emotional restraint to thoughtfully examine the things he observes, without jumping to unwarranted assumptions.

Baruch

Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 11:10:37 PM
I'm just saying that once being religious myself and thinking, quite stupidly, that I had all the answer's, I can find it kind of disappointing knowing that I will never have all the answers. It is however, a lot more liberating knowing that I will never have all the answer's, and will always be able to questing the universe around us. The religious population, that's not going to change in size for a few more generations.

It is normal for young people to think they have all the answers, or that adults are stupid.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Journey_To_Mars

Quote from: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 12:40:32 PM
It is normal for young people to think they have all the answers, or that adults are stupid.

I'm not saying I think I have all the answers any more though, I know I'll never be able to definitely say that a certain answer is the absolutely correct answer but I can answer questions to a degree of what knowledge I've acquired. Not that they'll be the smartest answers.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.

Baruch

Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 03:34:38 PM
I'm not saying I think I have all the answers any more though, I know I'll never be able to definitely say that a certain answer is the absolutely correct answer but I can answer questions to a degree of what knowledge I've acquired. Not that they'll be the smartest answers.

Experience is the best teacher ... but it requires blood letting ;-(
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Journey_To_Mars

Quote from: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 07:38:09 PM
Experience is the best teacher ... but it requires blood letting ;-(

So if someone were to cut their hand off, would that be a greater experience than a thousand small cuts?
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." - Voltaire

Maths is a game where you make the rules and play around within them.