Conviction or Repetition

[Baruch]

Why then would Christians, Jews and Muslims all be considered "people of the book"? The God of Abraham is the God of all 3 religions. So if it existed it would, indeed, be the same entity.

Metaphorical family feud.  Jews (originally) and Arabs are both Semites.  Muslims originally were Arabs.  Christians are (metaphorically) considered to be Edomites in Jewish theology.  Muslims are (literally for Arabs and metaphorically for the rest) considered to be Ishmaeites.  Jews are Jacobites (not Scottish though).  This is derived from the notion that Christianity is a Hellenistic Jewish heresy ... which it in fact is.  Muslims of course consider that Jews and Christians are heretics, because to them, Abraham was the first Muslim (which he was).  Of course Abraham, Moses, Jesus are all fictional people.  Christians consider Jews to be heretics, because the Messiah came, but the Jews rejected him (maybe because he was speaking a Greek dialect?).

[Mike Cl]

in Behaviorism, once a popular form of psychology in the US ... since conscious states aren't shared, they can't be objective.  So objective psychology can't be concerned with consciousness.  And I agree, even if I am not a Behaviorist (I am a depth psychology person).  So for Pops, in so far as we are talking psychology, you may have a particular POV (as I do) or had a particular experience (we all do) ... but for a Behaviorist, there is no use talking about it.  I think this is where MikeCL is coming from ;-)  Depth psychology was started by Freud, and he was a secularized Jewish exorcist ... so we can see why some folks shy away from this.

Don't know about the jargon.  I've not studied much psychology, but what you said, Baruch, seems about right.  I cannot get into another person's head and see what they are thinking or have experienced.  So, to have had a 'transcendence' type of experience and expect me to take your word for it, is pretty silly.  That can not in any way be considered proof of god or anything else.  To say that god is spiritual and only spiritual is dishonest, at best.  If your god created the material universe and the only way it can communicate is via the mind, then that god is ineffectual, at best--and 100% sure to be a fiction. 

[popsthebuilder]

How is it baseless???  I basing this on what you have reported to us.  Well, I see--that does make it baseless, since you have based your belief in a fictional god on a fiction that happened to you.  If it is not a fiction then give me so proof that it wasn't--any proof will do.  But you can't, for it is all fiction.  Or set me straight...................

Are you deaf or dumb?

I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO PROVE ANYTHING TO ANYONE FOR THEM.

So if you where to see a bolt of lightning or a shooting star and had no recording of it whatsoever would I be justified in saying you imagined it?

If you claim a thing changed your life that you cannot reproduce because it wasnt of your production to begin with, then I would be justified in saying it was merely a trick of the brain? If so then how? How is that accurate? What evidence supports your claim that it was an episode caused by myself, all while oblivious to myself and seeming to come wholly from an outside source?

You are talking out of your ass.

Not only do I not expect any to take my word for evidence, but I have repeatedly stated as much.

Not only are you assuming based on ignorance, but you have repeatedly shown as much and not a bit more

Since I'm not trying to prove the existence of GOD from personal testimony then perhaps you could actually support your claims...But I know you can't because they are utterly falitious.

peace

[fencerider]

If you were sitting in your living room and a god appeared, you may believe that constitutes proof of that god's existence, but it wouldn't be proof for very many other people. If however there just happened to be a video camera in your living room and it just happened to be recording when the god showed up, you would have proof of a god's existence that most people would accept. Of course there would still be skeptical people like mike asking if the video is a hoax.


If the god of the Bible and the god of the Quran are one and the same, Christians and Muslims should join up with each other. I would love to see someone put the Bible and the Quran together in the same book ;-). Talk about a blood sport.

What we know for sure is that both the Quran and the Bible were written on the back side of a hot desert. Maybe some good old boy was sittin out in the sun long enough to have a psychological event. Then because nobody was around to tell him to put a hat on he started writing down all this stuff that became "the book"

[Baruch]

If you were sitting in your living room and a god appeared, you may believe that constitutes proof of that god's existence, but it wouldn't be proof for very many other people. If however there just happened to be a video camera in your living room and it just happened to be recording when the god showed up, you would have proof of a god's existence that most people would accept. Of course there would still be skeptical people like mike asking if the video is a hoax.


If the god of the Bible and the god of the Quran are one and the same, Christians and Muslims should join up with each other. I would love to see someone put the Bible and the Quran together in the same book ;-). Talk about a blood sport.

What we know for sure is that both the Quran and the Bible were written on the back side of a hot desert. Maybe some good old boy was sittin out in the sun long enough to have a psychological event. Then because nobody was around to tell him to put a hat on he started writing down all this stuff that became "the book"

Difference between a demigod and a god.  A demigod could be photographed, a god could not be.  Demigods are humans, and yes, we can be photographed.  However I would contend that any miracle can't be photographed, because properly understood, it is subjective, not objective.  Only what is natural can be photographed, the supernatural cannot be.

Of course the god of the OT and that of the Quran are similar, they are both Semitic chieftains.  Jesus isn't that ... Jesus is both Jewish and non-Jewish at the same time.  Jesus vs Allah would be like they Monkey King against the General of the Jade Emperor.  The resurrection of Jesus, is actually comical, like the Monkey King.

[popsthebuilder]

The resurrection is of a spiritual sort and pertains to all of GOD's will which Christ is was and will be in my opinion

[Mike Cl]

Are you deaf or dumb?

I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO PROVE ANYTHING TO ANYONE FOR THEM.

So if you where to see a bolt of lightning or a shooting star and had no recording of it whatsoever would I be justified in saying you imagined it?

If you claim a thing changed your life that you cannot reproduce because it wasnt of your production to begin with, then I would be justified in saying it was merely a trick of the brain? If so then how? How is that accurate? What evidence supports your claim that it was an episode caused by myself, all while oblivious to myself and seeming to come wholly from an outside source?

You are talking out of your ass.

Not only do I not expect any to take my word for evidence, but I have repeatedly stated as much.

Not only are you assuming based on ignorance, but you have repeatedly shown as much and not a bit more

Since I'm not trying to prove the existence of GOD from personal testimony then perhaps you could actually support your claims...But I know you can't because they are utterly falitious.

peace

My, my my............I must have gotten to mr. christ-like.  So much for convictions.  But that is typical of the average theist; their god is in charge, that is until they get pissed, then the devil takes over! :))))   You keep injecting god into everything, including your own transcendence, so how can you say you aren't trying to prove god?  And if not, why not.  I contend that it is all a fiction.  You have to have a god in your life apparently before you can act 'right' (whatever that means) and you have created a fiction to provide you with a god.  Really, there isn't anything wrong with that--except it isn't necessary.  If you want to act 'right' then act 'right'.  I try to do that and I don't need a god looking over my shoulder or living in my head to do it.   

[popsthebuilder]

My, my my............I must have gotten to mr. christ-like.  So much for convictions.  But that is typical of the average theist; their god is in charge, that is until they get pissed, then the devil takes over! :))))   You keep injecting god into everything, including your own transcendence, so how can you say you aren't trying to prove god?  And if not, why not.  I contend that it is all a fiction.  You have to have a god in your life apparently before you can act 'right' (whatever that means) and you have created a fiction to provide you with a god.  Really, there isn't anything wrong with that--except it isn't necessary.  If you want to act 'right' then act 'right'.  I try to do that and I don't need a god looking over my shoulder or living in my head to do it.

There you go assuming things again. Keep making unverifiable claims all while accusing me of such....that's what you do

peace

[SGOS]

Gods have been created down through the history of mankind, and were believed in with enthusiasm for long durations until they fell out of fashion.  During these eras, people came to realize that previous god's were false, concocted out of the imaginations of more primitive societies.  The current god in fashion was always believed to be the real god, wholly true with actual evidence to support its existence.

The gods in fashion at this time in man's history, the Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and the more recent New Age creations, also have in common with the ancient gods the qualities of imagined evidence to support them.  In fact, all evidence which supports them can only be imagined, because all of the evidence, even in the best cases, cannot be verified.  And much of it can be proven to be false outright. 

Therefore, the evidence and the ancient gods themselves have to be IMAGINARY.  I can say "The evidence and the resulting gods have to be imaginary" with confidence, because without credible evidence that can be demonstrated and passed on in the form of verified knowledge, the imagination is the only place where any transient god can exist. 

By definition, it follows that all the gods now fallen from fashion are imaginary, since their existence is wholly dependent on imagination.  And since the gods currently in fashion share that quality with the ancient gods, they too have to be imaginary.

But during the period where a specific god is favored, few people realize the shared qualities.  They believe the new gods are the real gods, and that mankind has finally got it right (except for that part that gets it wrong).  When the current gods of fashion fall from favor, they will be added to the anthologies of mythology and lore.  And they will be clearly viewed as imaginary concoctions of more primitive men.

In my opinion.

[fencerider]

in my opinion. any real god now existing should have realized that people are forgetting about that god's existence and should be coming to check in, sort of set the record straight.

[Baruch]

in my opinion. any real god now existing should have realized that people are forgetting about that god's existence and should be coming to check in, sort of set the record straight.

Exactly the Muslim point of view regarding Muhammad and weekly/daily worship.  Catholics used to go to mass 7 days a week, not once a week.  Reinforcement of habit ;-)

[Heisreal]

I was born and raised in the Bible Belt, here in NC. My mom gave her heart to God a few years before I was born. My dad always believed there was a God, but refused to accept Him in his life.

I was raised in church, every Sunday, Sunday night, and Wednesday night I was sitting in the pew. I was sick of it, so when I left out on my own, I left church and God behind. I had a sin party for about 20 years. But my mother never stopped praying for me, and I thank God for a faithful and God fearing mother.

After 2 divorces and going nowhere in life, I decided to go to church with my mom one Sunday. My mom took my hand and prayed for me before we left for church. Something happened to me at that service, and I knew I was on the wrong path. I decided I would give God a chance, He couldn't mess it up anymore than I had.

I began to study the scripture in our small Baptist church, and for the first time in my life, I got it. I began to understand the spiritual side of the scripture, and not just the history which I had learned so many years before. I began to understand the words of Christ in their true meaning, I actually began to understand what the Apostle Paul was trying to convey. The scripture was interpreting scripture. It came like a flood, and all those Bible stories began to take on a different meaning. All the pieces were falling together. I realized, it's all true. The things I couldn't understand, but heard others speak of, was being revealed to me.

That's how it happens, for a period of time it seems there could be no God. Then He sends light through His word that sometimes blows me away. Slowly but surly God makes His presence known, He does by opening His word to our level of understanding. If you don't believe me, read the word of God, asking Him to open your understanding. Weeks may pass and little happens, but if you are serious, and God knows, it will begin to happen.

How do I know it's God and not satan? Scripture always interprets scripture, the light He gives will always and without exception agree with His word to your understanding.

If you're not serious about finding the truth of God, you're wasting your time. Only the serious will find Him, though He is within reach of us all. 

[Mike Cl]

I was born and raised in the Bible Belt, here in NC. My mom gave her heart to God a few years before I was born. My dad always believed there was a God, but refused to accept Him in his life.

I was raised in church, every Sunday, Sunday night, and Wednesday night I was sitting in the pew. I was sick of it, so when I left out on my own, I left church and God behind. I had a sin party for about 20 years. But my mother never stopped praying for me, and I thank God for a faithful and God fearing mother.

After 2 divorces and going nowhere in life, I decided to go to church with my mom one Sunday. My mom took my hand and prayed for me before we left for church. Something happened to me at that service, and I knew I was on the wrong path. I decided I would give God a chance, He couldn't mess it up anymore than I had.

I began to study the scripture in our small Baptist church, and for the first time in my life, I got it. I began to understand the spiritual side of the scripture, and not just the history which I had learned so many years before. I began to understand the words of Christ in their true meaning, I actually began to understand what the Apostle Paul was trying to convey. The scripture was interpreting scripture. It came like a flood, and all those Bible stories began to take on a different meaning. All the pieces were falling together. I realized, it's all true. The things I couldn't understand, but heard others speak of, was being revealed to me.

That's how it happens, for a period of time it seems there could be no God. Then He sends light through His word that sometimes blows me away. Slowly but surly God makes His presence known, He does by opening His word to our level of understanding. If you don't believe me, read the word of God, asking Him to open your understanding. Weeks may pass and little happens, but if you are serious, and God knows, it will begin to happen.

How do I know it's God and not satan? Scripture always interprets scripture, the light He gives will always and without exception agree with His word to your understanding.

If you're not serious about finding the truth of God, you're wasting your time. Only the serious will find Him, though He is within reach of us all.

Very interesting story--thanks for sharing.  That is more than most theists share. 

Look, for some reason you theist types seem to thing I don't believe in god because I'm lazy.  Or have some need to 'sin' (whatever that means).  I have had a long  history of 'searching' for god.  It started while I was in grade school in Alabama--went to a Southern Baptist and Assembly of God church.  When I moved to Oregon, I no longer attended any church but did read about religion and spirituality.  In HS and college I sought within organized religion only sparsely, but took several classes dealing with religion and philosophy.   Did not do much searching until my divorce and then started searching anew.  My new wife and I attended a local Unity  Church and was with them for over 10 yrs.  I became so involved that I was on the church board for 5 yrs serving as both vp and president for a year each.  During this time I read the bible cover to cover and tried to see the spiritual side of it.  Discussed it with anybody who would listen.  I came to the conclusion that the bible is a collection of writings selected from possibly around 100 distinct writings.  The bible has been crafted to reflect the political views and aims of those who crafted it.  As you may realize, there is no 'the bible', but a vast array of many.  The more I sought to establish a personal relationship with god and to learn to pray correctly, the more I realized that god does not exist--and praying is simply a form of self-talk.  Thru dedicated studies I have realized that the bible is simply man made and god a fiction.  So, you see, dedicated research and deep personal searching does not a christian make all the time.  I see the biggest difference between our two stories is that you were weaned on god.  My parents did not do that--if I went, I went on my own.  And I am thankful that they allowed me to make up my own mind.  Yours is not a new or unusual story--if one is raised in the church the tendency is that in later life one returns to it.  It familiar and comforting.  That does not mean it is actual or factual (god).

[Hydra009]

Fellow North Carolinian and ardent Christian.  What are the odds?  :P

Just so you guys know, that's a pretty typical story around here.  Religious family (plus or minus some doubts), frequent if not routine church services, strong religious convictions (give or take a rebellious, "sinful" phase), and wonderfully mind-bending idioms like "scripture always interprets scripture".

These are the people I'm bumping elbows with daily and discussing political issues with when they come up.  Just visualize that day in and day out for decades.  And now you know why I come here.

[Heisreal]

Very interesting story--thanks for sharing.  That is more than most theists share. 

Look, for some reason you theist types seem to thing I don't believe in god because I'm lazy.  Or have some need to 'sin' (whatever that means).  I have had a long  history of 'searching' for god.  It started while I was in grade school in Alabama--went to a Southern Baptist and Assembly of God church.  When I moved to Oregon, I no longer attended any church but did read about religion and spirituality.  In HS and college I sought within organized religion only sparsely, but took several classes dealing with religion and philosophy.   Did not do much searching until my divorce and then started searching anew.  My new wife and I attended a local Unity  Church and was with them for over 10 yrs.  I became so involved that I was on the church board for 5 yrs serving as both vp and president for a year each.  During this time I read the bible cover to cover and tried to see the spiritual side of it.  Discussed it with anybody who would listen.  I came to the conclusion that the bible is a collection of writings selected from possibly around 100 distinct writings.  The bible has been crafted to reflect the political views and aims of those who crafted it.  As you may realize, there is no 'the bible', but a vast array of many.  The more I sought to establish a personal relationship with god and to learn to pray correctly, the more I realized that god does not exist--and praying is simply a form of self-talk.  Thru dedicated studies I have realized that the bible is simply man made and god a fiction.  So, you see, dedicated research and deep personal searching does not a christian make all the time.  I see the biggest difference between our two stories is that you were weaned on god.  My parents did not do that--if I went, I went on my own.  And I am thankful that they allowed me to make up my own mind.  Yours is not a new or unusual story--if one is raised in the church the tendency is that in later life one returns to it.  It familiar and comforting.  That does not mean it is actual or factual (god).

\

It just so happens that the scripture says:
Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

Ok, I was lucky in that I was raised in a God-fearing church. You were not so lucky. But that's no reason to cop out, or feel sorry for yourself. I also know that you didn't search out God with all your heart because you would have found Him. You went about it carelessly, let's just be honest here.

Now you want to do the exact same thing i did, blame God for the failures in your life. Oh, I know how it goes, I've been there! How could a God who says He loves me so much allow all this to happen to me?

You failed at life and will continue to fail at life because you left behind your shield and protection, the Word of God. You have the free will to continue on that path to destruction if you like, but I chose a different direction, I swallowed my pride and gave God the wheel.

God didn't create the problems in your life and He didn't desert you, you deserted Him by not following His path for success. And rest assured, there is no successful life without God. You are to blame, not God.

God specializes in the impossible! He can turn it all around and give you back the desires of your heart. Most of all He will give you peace from the grind of life, and you will recover with a love for God to replace the hate.

God has made promises to rescue the perishing, you can believe it or not believe it. That will decide your fate. He turned my hell here on earth to peace and joy, He can do the same for you.

I can show you how to find that peace, but you will have to be dead serious with God.