7 dead in Santa Monica College shooting spree

[Mermaid]

I am ashamed to say that this has become so commonplace that I barely register these incidents anymore.

I remember the shock, horror and outrage I felt when I heard the new about Columbine. Things are different now, and that is disturbing. Really, really disturbing.

[Mermaid]

It's individuals like this who have a skewed perspective on reality that need to be addressed. You can try to remove all the guns you want (unlikely proposition considering the black market and homemade technologies), but until you address the motivation behind those who even consider using guns on their peers, you're not going to get very far.

Agree very much. We have guns but I would rather saw off my own leg than use them on another person. I do admit that this cultural idea that we all NEED guns to defend ourselves makes me sick to my stomach. What the fuck is wrong with us that this even occurs to so many people? Should we all have that mindset that we need to kill or be killed?

What is it about our culture that cultivates such a disconnect from reality? To some of us, the value of the life of other human beings is somehow diminished.

I wonder if this is still the case AFTER someone commits a murder over a pack of cigarettes? Do they really grasp what they've done? Or do they think in terms of something like a video game where there's a reset button and you get more lives?

[Plu]

I wonder if this is still the case AFTER someone commits a murder over a pack of cigarettes? Do they really grasp what they've done? Or do they think in terms of something like a video game where there's a reset button and you get more lives?

More likely they think in terms of "I didn't kill another human being 'cause he was a nigger/mexican/faggot/liberal/republican/whatever". The easiest way to kill another person is to not consider them another person. And it happens a lot, and that's scary.

And yeah, these events don't register for me anymore either. It's like "the kind of thing that happens in the US".

[Mermaid]

I wonder if this is still the case AFTER someone commits a murder over a pack of cigarettes? Do they really grasp what they've done? Or do they think in terms of something like a video game where there's a reset button and you get more lives?

More likely they think in terms of "I didn't kill another human being 'cause he was a nigger/mexican/faggot/liberal/republican/whatever". The easiest way to kill another person is to not consider them another person. And it happens a lot, and that's scary.

And yeah, these events don't register for me anymore either. It's like "the kind of thing that happens in the US".

I guess it's my naive thought that once this person sees families and the consequences of what they have REALLY DONE, it may register.

Maybe that is stupid.

[Plu]

It might register, it might not. Regardless of whether it registers, someone will be dead.

For some reason, your post made me think of this:
http://zenpencils.com/comic/73-mark-twa ... l-journey/

I guess it's the one thing all these people who demonize others need.

[Johan]

Welcome to America where the only way to stave off random gun attacks is to give every American a gun to carry at all times.

*shakes head*

Yep---- see those gun laws working Soooo well.

WIth all due respect Bri, I don't think anyone with any credibility is saying that or advocating it. There are a handful of small towns where those sorts of laws exist and in some cases have existed for quite some time. But for the most part, no one is claiming we need to give everyone guns or force them to own one. Likewise I don't think anyone with any kind of credibility is claiming that having more armed people is the way to stop these sorts of mass shootings. There are anecdotal stories that often gets cited of a few mass shootings and attempted mass shooting in recent years which were stopped when the shooter was confronted by armed citizens. I don't really care enough to even verify those stories are true because true or not, they're not a solution and they prove nothing so pursuing them ends there for me as I suspect it does with most people.

The long and short of this issue has already been stated in this thread. Gun laws are necessary and need to be more restrictive. I'll say that again just for good measure. Gun laws are necessary and need to be more restrictive. But no gun law in the world is going to stop a whacko. If you want to stop the mass murder wackos,  you have to address the issues that cause them to become wackos in the first place. That is the ONLY way these scenarios will end.

If you need further evidence of that you need only look at what happened in Boston. Those boys didn't need any guns to start off the chain of events that shut down the city and threw it into marshal law. Obviously they used guns during their attempted getaway. But no shots were fired and to my knowledge there is no evidence that either of them were even carrying a gun when the bombs went off. The point is taking away the guns is not how you stop the whackos from being wacko. It only changes their options. But they will ALWAYS come up with options. And just so no one (not you Bri, but others) tries to take my comments out of context, I say again that gun laws are necessary and need to be more restrictive.

He filled out some paperwork which took him a few mins. The salesman behind the counter said "You can probably pick these up in about a week".

Well again with all due respect, I think the fact that it was going to take a week is a good thing. I guess you'd be shocked at how many states don't require that. In many states, you fill out some paperwork, they make a short phone call to verify the paperwork, and you're out the door with your purchase in under an hour. If a one-week waiting period isn't enough, I'm curious to know what you think would be better.

Guess those FBI background checks are easy-peasy and of course NObody ever LIES......... and there's still no Medical background check - aka - did you take your bipolar business today?

I'm still on fence about the medical background check thing. I don't deny that there seems to be a need for it. But its such a pandora's box that I don't know how such checks could be implemented with any kind of positive effect without being so open ended and far reaching that lots of people and agencies which currently don't have access to the fact that you take zoloft (like your boss or your auto insurance provider) would end up having access to that information. And that's not just for people who want to buy guns, that would end up being the case for everyone if we construct a medical background check for gun purchases that has any kind of real teeth.

And the reason for that is because as you've said above, people lie. Ask any pilot who has flown professionally and they will tell you that they either know someone who has routinely lied on their pilot medical form or they've done it themselves. The FAA is incredibly restrictive about what meds and what medical conditions are allowed. If you're feeling a little down in dumps and your doctor puts you wellburtrin, that's a career ender for a professional pilot. So far more often than not, when they get to the question of the form that asks whether they're on any meds, they just say no and nothing more comes of it. The FAA does have some means of checking if they suspect a lie. They can subpoena your insurance company records for instance. But that doesn't work when you have your doctor write your prescription in your spouses name or when you pay cash for it.  The point is we already have places where we require medical background checks as a means for keeping certain people out of certain situations and they really only keep the honest people honest because so far, your medical records are largely private. Once we 'break that seal' and let other agencies in, we run the risk of letting lots of other people in. Like I said, its a pandora's box. There might be a way to do it effectively and securely, but there are so many ways the wheels could fall off, it makes me really nervous for all of us, not just the gun folks, if we really pursue this. Careful what you wish for is the phrase that comes to mind.

[Seabear]

I just want to know where all of the condescending "look at how fucked up California is" posts are?

[Johan]

On the topic of gun laws...

Open carry is the worse. As a cashier, seeing someone walk in with a pistol on their waist never gets easy. I don't know if I am suppose to call the cops, but he hasn't committed a crime till he pulls it on me.

Not to pick on you but you're nervous about the open carry people because you don't know if they're going to rob you? Have you looked at any stats for cashier holdup situations where they perp was carrying open vs situations where the perp had the weapon concealed? I mean not for nothing but atheists tend to like evidence for their beliefs and all. I think if you looked that stats you'd realize you're worried about the wrong people. If someone is carrying open, their weapon is most likely registered and legal. Look at the stats for how often holdups take place with registered and legally owned weapons. Unless evidence means nothing to you. In which case, nevermind.

[Plu]

I don't think any kind of evidence and statistics can take away the feeling, though. There's a big difference between knowing it's unlikely to happen and the gut feeling that some guy just came into your store openly carrying a gun.

I know that the odds of anything happening are really small, but if some guys sitting next to me on the train pulls out a big knife and starts cleaning it, I'm still going to feel uncomfortable.

[Shiranu]

Not to pick on you but you're nervous about the open carry people because you don't know if they're going to rob you? Have you looked at any stats for cashier holdup situations where they perp was carrying open vs situations where the perp had the weapon concealed? I mean not for nothing but atheists tend to like evidence for their beliefs and all. I think if you looked that stats you'd realize you're worried about the wrong people. If someone is carrying open, their weapon is most likely registered and legal. Look at the stats for how often holdups take place with registered and legally owned weapons. Unless evidence means nothing to you. In which case, nevermind.

Nice underhand technique.

There is ZERO fucking need to bring a gun into a business. If you are carrying a gun, then I have to assume you feel the need to use it... and if you feel you need to use a gun at a place I work, that makes me nervous. I already said I realize the guy is just most likely being an open-carry douchebag, but that doesn't mean that when he gets to the counter he wouldn't decide to pull it out and rob me, or get bumped by another customer and flip out and start shooting. All I know is that there is a guy with a gun in my place of business, where there is zero need to have a gun, and that puts me on guard. I realize the statistics and evidence, and that's why I realize that if someone has a gun on them you HAVE to be aware of it instead of just saying, "Oh jolly gee, that guy has a gun! I feel safer already!"... because gun violence is not 0% non-existent.

I know that the odds of anything happening are really small, but if some guys sitting next to me on the train pulls out a big knife and starts cleaning it, I'm still going to feel uncomfortable.

This. Statistics or not, if someone has something that could potentially kill you, you have to be aware of it. We take caution with all sorts of things that are statistically low in harming us, guns don't get any sort of exception.

[Johan]

Nice underhand technique.

There is ZERO fucking need to bring a gun into a business. If you are carrying a gun, then I have to assume you feel the need to use it...

Who says there has to be a need? There is ZERO fucking need to bring a mullet into a place of business or anywhere else but people still do it. The law is what it is. People are allowed to do it. There is no requirement for a need. Question for you though since you claim that when you see someone with a gun you assume they intend to use it. When a person of middle eastern descent enters your store, do you assume they have a bomb? When a black person enters, do you assume they also intend to rob you? Now for an even better question. When a white elderly person enters your store, do you assume they're not going to shoplift? If so then again, I recommend you seek out the statistics for shoplifting by senior citizens.

I already said I realize the guy is just most likely being an open-carry douchebag, but that doesn't mean that when he gets to the counter he wouldn't decide to pull it out and rob me, or get bumped by another customer and flip out and start shooting.

There is so much ignorance in this statement it isn't even funny. And I don't say that to imply that you're being dumb. I'm saying ignorance in the true sense. The not really understanding the true facts of the situation sense. There is a cure for such ignorance but based on your comments in this thread and others, I'm going to assume you're not really interested in gaining the knowledge required so I'll drop it. Your loss. Shrug.

[Plu]

If you're coming into a store openly carrying a firearm, people going to be uncomfortable. There's a big difference between paranoia (the assumption that a middle eastern man is carrying something that might kill you) and someone actually carrying something into your store that can kill you, in plain sight.

I don't consider this to be strange at all; just realistic. He's probably not going to shoot you, but that doesn't mean you should just be completely immune to the fact that someone is openly carrying around a lethal weapon. There are a lot of reasons to carry one, but a lot of those are also reasons that would put me on edge

(including "I don't feel safe without a gun", "I feel powerful with a gun" and "I like to show off that I have a gun". Anyone carrying a gun for any of those reasons would make we uncomfortable.)

Oh, not to mention that your odds of getting shot in the case of an actual robbery are only going up with random citizens openly carrying guns in your store.

[Johan]

If you're coming into a store openly carrying a firearm, people going to be uncomfortable. There's a big difference between paranoia (the assumption that a middle eastern man is carrying something that might kill you) and someone actually carrying something into your store that can kill you, in plain sight.

Ok so by this I'm going to assume that in order for concern to be paranoia, one must assume bad things are going to happen as a result of certain circumstances even though the data clearly shows there is very little chance of such a thing happening i.e. most middle eastern people are not terrorists therefore its being paranoid to assume a middle eastern person is carrying a bomb.

So why then is it not being paranoid when the data clearly shows that people open carry are responsible for very little gun related violent crime? The stats are what they are. The facts are what they are. Seems an awful lot like a double standard to me. If you KNOW that most middle eastern people are not terrorists and therefore consider it to be irrational to be nervous that any random middle eastern person might be prepared to kill you if you look at them funny,  then why is it not also irrational to be nervous about some random person whom statistically speaking is much less likely to harm you with a gun than a common criminal would?

Criminals generally don't commit crimes with weapons that can be traced back to them. Likewise criminals generally don't openly carry weapons they don't legally own. Now of course there is always the possibility of Johnny Open Carry just being some sort of ticking time bomb loose wing nut who has never committed a crime in his life but is willing to do so tonight if you look at him wrong. But just like the facts tell us that most middle eastern people do not turn out to be terrorists, the facts also tell us that most individuals who open carry do not turn out to be ticking time bombs. So why is being nervous about one considered paranoid but not the other?

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Obligatory 'THANK GOD more people weren't killed, but fuck those who were, but pray for the survivors.'
I survived all the way from Columbus, Ohio. I'll be expecting your prayers by morning.

You know... This is ALL the result of gay people. :shock:

[SilentFutility]

We have guns but I would rather saw off my own leg than use them on another person.

You are at a friend/acquaintance/family member's house who is a gun owner and you know where they keep the nearest gun, it is in the kitchen and on top of a cupboard.

A man breaks in wielding an axe. Instead of going for the gun, you immediately grab a breadknife and begin to saw off your own leg. The man wielding an axe stops in his tracks, wets himself and runs away wondering what the shit he's been smoking was laced with.

Could work.

Guess those FBI background checks are easy-peasy and of course NObody ever LIES......... and there's still no Medical background check - aka - did you take your bipolar business today?

I'm still on fence about the medical background check thing. I don't deny that there seems to be a need for it. But its such a pandora's box that I don't know how such checks could be implemented with any kind of positive effect without being so open ended and far reaching that lots of people and agencies which currently don't have access to the fact that you take zoloft (like your boss or your auto insurance provider) would end up having access to that information. And that's not just for people who want to buy guns, that would end up being the case for everyone if we construct a medical background check for gun purchases that has any kind of real teeth

In the UK all of our medical records are kept on a secure database accessible by any doctor or health professional. This was originally so that when you go to the doctor, they have all of your medical records to hand.

It also means that when you apply for a firearms license you sign a form consenting to the police having access to these records to see whether or not there's a reason why you shouldn't be granted a license ie. mental health problems.

Of course, this would be difficult to implement in America as hospitals are essentially businesses rather than a frontline government service like the police.