I've been thinking, and that's dangerous.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

I was listening to a members-only episode of "The British History Podcast," and it got me thinking about how symbolism frames the social justice debate.

Patriotic imagery is the symbolism of choice for much of the Alt-Right, which naturally attracts patriotic Americans. Why wouldn't it? That imagery represents the country whose history and ideals they care deeply about, and now the Alt-Right is framing things such that "liberals" appear to be destroying all of it. Meanwhile, SJWs and other left-wing activists naturally shrink away from those patriotic symbols, since they obviously don't want to associate themselves with "the enemy." Unfortunately, this makes history much less likely to be on their side, as the general trend shows that social movements which appeal to those ingrained traditions are much more likely to succeed. The revolutionary American government appealed to the Roman Republic, the historical "bastion of democracy" that overthrew its kings and became the greatest country on Earth; just look at the shit we were building right after the war ended if you don't believe me. There are numerous examples I could point to of this happening: the Nazis invoking old Germanic and Norse imagery, Stalin calling back to Russia's stand against Napoleon, just to name a couple.

The question I'm driving at is this: How different would things be if Black Lives Matter protests were marching under this banner instead?

[aitm]

A rather interesting question. I think they would be accused of stealing an "American Icon" for their selfish reasons and all those pretending to be good old non-racists would come unglued. Oh the evilness of the BLM...

[Baruch]

Racism and slavery are the norms in all societies.  Conservative Americans are still fighting the English Civil War of the 1640s.  Liberal Americans are doing something slightly older ... the Italian Renaissance (rebirth of paganism and humanism).  Of course our English ancestors weren't completely opposed to the Italian Renaissance ... but they only took on the parts they liked.  Pax Britannia for example.  But they rejected the Catholic parts ... and made English madrigals, not Italian ones.  England was more hospitable to science than Italy in the long run.

[Cavebear]

I was listening to a members-only episode of "The British History Podcast," and it got me thinking about how symbolism frames the social justice debate.

Patriotic imagery is the symbolism of choice for much of the Alt-Right, which naturally attracts patriotic Americans. Why wouldn't it? That imagery represents the country whose history and ideals they care deeply about, and now the Alt-Right is framing things such that "liberals" appear to be destroying all of it. Meanwhile, SJWs and other left-wing activists naturally shrink away from those patriotic symbols, since they obviously don't want to associate themselves with "the enemy." Unfortunately, this makes history much less likely to be on their side, as the general trend shows that social movements which appeal to those ingrained traditions are much more likely to succeed. The revolutionary American government appealed to the Roman Republic, the historical "bastion of democracy" that overthrew its kings and became the greatest country on Earth; just look at the shit we were building right after the war ended if you don't believe me. There are numerous examples I could point to of this happening: the Nazis invoking old Germanic and Norse imagery, Stalin calling back to Russia's stand against Napoleon, just to name a couple.

The question I'm driving at is this: How different would things be if Black Lives Matter protests were marching under this banner instead?

I'm a white, progressive, male, and patriotic. I refuse to relinquish my love of country to some right wing nazis.