Did Jesus ever exist?

[Baruch]

Three unconnected thoughts...

"I love history" is neutral and signifies nothing.

"I am a skeptic" is doubtful.

"I consider history to be part of literature", suggests that history is equally fiction and myth (as literature is mostly), not to be taken seriously.

Do you actually THINK before you type?

You can believe that Tide is new and improved ... if you want.  Whatever happened in the past, isn't history.  It is a mistake to label propaganda, contemporary or directed to past events, as history.  Even the things I have personally experienced, their meaning is questionable (at least to self criticism) ... let alone Pontificating on things I didn't personally experience.

Of course I am a skeptic ... you aren't a real bear, are you? ;-))

[Cavebear]

You can believe that Tide is new and improved ... if you want.  Whatever happened in the past, isn't history.  It is a mistake to label propaganda, contemporary or directed to past events, as history.  Even the things I have personally experienced, their meaning is questionable (at least to self criticism) ... let alone Pontificating on things I didn't personally experience.

Of course I am a skeptic ... you aren't a real bear, are you? ;-))

As usual. you make little sense.

[Baruch]

As usual. you make little sense.

Better than no sense at all ;-)  You really need to chill, maybe a hibernation is in order? ;-)

[Cavebear]

Better than no sense at all ;-)  You really need to chill, maybe a hibernation is in order? ;-)

Forgive me, I meant "no sense" but I was trying to be polite.  But you have lead us off-topic (as usual and as you like).  Did Jesus ever exist?

[Blackleaf]

I must insist that jesus never existed as a real human.

I don't really even know if there is any actual evidence rather then testimony that he was. But even if there was a historical jesus it really doesn't mean much to me. It'd be no different then a historical muhammed or budda.

Exactly. Thanks to the author of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," C. S. Lewis, Christians love to repeat this phrase: "Either Jesus was a lunatic, liar, or Lord." But that statement falsely assumes that no other options exist. There are two more that I can think of: myth or legend. There's no evidence that Jesus ever existed, so it's likely he's a myth. But even if he were real, if you look at the New Testament in the order that they were actually written (starting with Paul's letters), it's easy to see that the stories about Jesus became more and more fantastical as time went on. He may have been an ordinary man that legends elevated into the Son of God, with the powers to command oceans and raise the dead.

[Cavebear]

Exactly. Thanks to the author of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," C. S. Lewis, Christians love to repeat this phrase: "Either Jesus was a lunatic, liar, or Lord." But that statement falsely assumes that no other options exist. There are two more that I can think of: myth or legend. There's no evidence that Jesus ever existed, so it's likely he's a myth. But even if he were real, if you look at the New Testament in the order that they were actually written (starting with Paul's letters), it's easy to see that the stories about Jesus became more and more fantastical as time went on. He may have been an ordinary man that legends elevated into the Son of God, with the powers to command oceans and raise the dead.

I sometimes imagine being transported 2,000 years into the future and seeing what past people (real or not) are considered holy.  Nader The Warrior?  Xandu The Healer?  Boson The Energetic?  Me?

[Blackleaf]

I sometimes imagine being transported 2,000 years into the future and seeing what past people (real or not) are considered holy.  Nader The Warrior?  Xandu The Healer?  Boson The Energetic?  Me?

I know that religions will likely exist for the rest of human history (or at least for a very, very, very long time). It's just too easy to manipulate people with religion. But I hope that in 2,000 years, the vast majority of people will be secular, and that they will see all organized religion the same way we look back on Greek myths. I hope that in age of such advanced technology that their people, more educated than ours, will not fall for the mind games of religion.

[Cavebear]

I know that religions will likely exist for the rest of human history (or at least for a very, very, very long time). It's just too easy to manipulate people with religion. But I hope that in 2,000 years, the vast majority of people will be secular, and that they will see all organized religion the same way we look back on Greek myths. I hope that in age of such advanced technology that their people, more educated than ours, will not fall for the mind games of religion.

I was visited by some J/W recently, and I felt like messing with them.  I asked if they believed in Thor. "No". I asked if they believed in Vishnu.  "No".  So I said I believed in their god like they believed in Thor and Vishnu.  One of them seemed to get my point, the other didn't.  My wearing my American Atheist hat might have clued them in...

I asked them to prove that Jesus actually existed.  That baffled them.  Not something they ask themselves...

I bet they exist 2,000 years from now.

[Baruch]

I know that religions will likely exist for the rest of human history (or at least for a very, very, very long time). It's just too easy to manipulate people with religion. But I hope that in 2,000 years, the vast majority of people will be secular, and that they will see all organized religion the same way we look back on Greek myths. I hope that in age of such advanced technology that their people, more educated than ours, will not fall for the mind games of religion.

Advanced technology that the average person doesn't understand, so makes it into idol worship, like the Omega Bomb in Planet of the Apes II?

[Unbeliever]

There were, of course, many men back in those days that had the name Joshua (Jesus). The Christians can take their pick of those, but whichever they choose, it still won't be God the Son.

[Cavebear]

Advanced technology that the average person doesn't understand, so makes it into idol worship, like the Omega Bomb in Planet of the Apes II?

So you are basing an argument on a technology which doesn't exist?

[Baruch]

So you are basing an argument on a technology which doesn't exist?

We do have the H bomb, and were basically worshipping that from the early 50s to the early 60s ... fiction does mirror current events at times.

So, how much QM do you understand, and when did you understand it? (Star chamber dialog like Bengazi committee).

[trdsf]

I'm not sure at this stage whether it even matters if there was a historical Jesus, since the xian community is almost unanimously Paulist, not Jesusist.  Even if there was a historical Jesus, he's not followed anyway.

[Baruch]

I'm not sure at this stage whether it even matters if there was a historical Jesus, since the xian community is almost unanimously Paulist, not Jesusist.  Even if there was a historical Jesus, he's not followed anyway.

You get a gold star.  Doesn't matter if there is a historical anyone; including Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna.  It is a polemic/apologetic item ... which is pointless if you reject the whole system that the polemic/apologetic is defending.  This was the Church Father's argument ... that those other savior gods like Orpheus and Osiris were mere myth, but our savior god is the real deal.  A fiction that is believed in, even if it is a historical person, that fiction is far more powerful than the reality ... see George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.  Christianity has been almost entirely Pauline since 135 CE.  I don't mean that as a criticism of Paul, he was one awesome Jewish dude ;-)  Since 325 CE ... Christianity outside of Ethiopia and the Near East, has been the cult of Constantine, not Paul, not Jesus.

[popsthebuilder]

You get a gold star.  Doesn't matter if there is a historical anyone; including Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna.  It is a polemic/apologetic item ... which is pointless if you reject the whole system that the polemic/apologetic is defending.  This was the Church Father's argument ... that those other savior gods like Orpheus and Osiris were mere myth, but our savior god is the real deal.  A fiction that is believed in, even if it is a historical person, that fiction is far more powerful than the reality ... see George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.  Christianity has been almost entirely Pauline since 135 CE.  I don't mean that as a criticism of Paul, he was one awesome Jewish dude ;-)  Since 325 CE ... Christianity outside of Ethiopia and the Near East, has been the cult of Constantine, not Paul, not Jesus.

You're like a little treasure trove of information pertinent to me.

Sweeeet!

Oops....

peace