Is morality an invention or do we all have somewhat of a built in compass?

Started by 374621, November 10, 2016, 06:02:19 PM

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Cavebear

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

374621

Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 10, 2016, 10:31:21 PM
I don't know good question. There's definitely something biological probably based around a need to interact with others and build societies. You need some kind of rules if you want to be successful. But the majority of morals change as time changes and are predominantly subjective socialization and indoctrination. I think if we took the time to figure out the specifics of our biological drive for ethics and morality, we could probably largely cut down on killing each other, but I don't see how we'd go about doing so.

I suppose we should start with what you think are strong moral values or even just a definition of a moral?

Personally for me moral are rules which you live or try to live by, like the golden rule, never stealing unless you really have to like our starving, or never cheating on your partner. I dont have morals i think currently in my life, im deciding how ill live my life or if ill always be all over the place like sometimes im nice and want to be a good person because it feels good but sometimes im selfish and am willing to screw over other people if it benefits me

i dont like the word morality because it involves rules that you impose upon yourself, if it wasnt illegal and i would never get caught and i dint feel guilty or remorse or experienced any "bad" feelings by doing it that it would benefit me somehow there would be no reason for me not to steal not to lie etc, if i enjoyed hitting dogs for no reason merely because it felt good for example, which i dont btw, but if it felt good i would honestly do it, some people may say thats immoral or wrong but you cant give me any reason for me to not do it


Sal1981

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Cavebear

Quote from: 374621 on November 11, 2016, 06:10:56 AM
Personally for me moral are rules which you live or try to live by, like the golden rule, never stealing unless you really have to like our starving, or never cheating on your partner. I dont have morals i think currently in my life, im deciding how ill live my life or if ill always be all over the place like sometimes im nice and want to be a good person because it feels good but sometimes im selfish and am willing to screw over other people if it benefits me

i dont like the word morality because it involves rules that you impose upon yourself, if it wasnt illegal and i would never get caught and i dint feel guilty or remorse or experienced any "bad" feelings by doing it that it would benefit me somehow there would be no reason for me not to steal not to lie etc, if i enjoyed hitting dogs for no reason merely because it felt good for example, which i dont btw, but if it felt good i would honestly do it, some people may say thats immoral or wrong but you cant give me any reason for me to not do it

I'm atheist, but think that some religions have good values atheistically arrived at.

Don't murder, Don't steal, Don't covet, Honor parents.  Those always make sense in any society.  No deity involved there.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

374621

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2016, 06:19:56 AM
I'm atheist, but think that some religions have good values atheistically arrived at.

Don't murder, Don't steal, Don't covet, Honor parents.  Those always make sense in any society.  No deity involved there.

Alot of people like myself wont follow those rules simply because its the moral/right thing to do, I need better reasons/incentives. take stealing for example, i may steal money/stuff if there werent any consequnces to my actions, after that no longer an issue the only thing that may prevent me from doing it is if i felt bad for doing it or if ill regret doing it or something, you cant just tell people at least not smart people to follow those rules you mentioned you need good arguments

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2016, 01:14:07 AM
Morality is the discovery of what works and doesn't in a functional civilization. 
"Morals are what allows us to live with ourselves. Ethics are what allows us to live with others."
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Gawdzilla Sama

The problem with the People of the Book claiming their god gave them morals is the many cultures who had a solid set of morals before they ever heard of Yahoo. (YHWH? Something like that.)
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Cavebear

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 11, 2016, 07:12:05 AM
The problem with the People of the Book claiming their god gave them morals is the many cultures who had a solid set of morals before they ever heard of Yahoo. (YHWH? Something like that.)

OK, you got me there.  I normally keep a distinction between morals and ethics, but I slipped in casual discussion.  Consider that I meant "ethics".  Morality is more of a religious term.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2016, 07:45:18 AM
OK, you got me there.  I normally keep a distinction between morals and ethics, but I slipped in casual discussion.  Consider that I meant "ethics".  Morality is more of a religious term.
Lumping happens.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Cavebear

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

drunkenshoe

Gawdzilla? What is wrong with you? You are not acting the way you usually do. Trump?
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Sal1981

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2016, 07:58:52 AM
Especially when making gravy.  But what do YOU mean by "lumping"?
I think Gawdzilla Sama means that the concepts of 'ethics' and 'morality' overlap or something.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2016, 01:14:07 AM
Morality is the discovery of what works and doesn't in a functional civilization.

Unfortunately, civilization is clearly dysfunctional.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:13:24 PM
What Im curious about is not so much morality but conscience. Have we always felt bad/guilty for killing someone who angered us, did slave owners feel any negative feelings.

Conscience is key, for those who have one.  I don't think slave owners have much conscience, or they couldn't hold slaves.  What they do feel is fear, that they will wake up with a justifiably slit throat.  This applies to all slavery, including wage and debt slavery ... the 1% today, fear waking up with a justifiably slit throat.

You have to develop a conscience, it is like a plant ... but some people have a moral brown thumb ;-(
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: 374621 on November 10, 2016, 07:18:05 PM

im not saying you need religion for morality i was just giving an example that maybe thats how humans started have a moral compass when religions like christi or islam gained followers or came into existence.

Jews made progress, because they took care of their fellow Jews.  Christians made even more progress, because they took care of their fellow Christians, and anybody else they could evangelize ;-)  Muslims are required to pay a wealth tax (not an income tax) ... they would still be world beaters if they had kept that up.  You don't see much of what we could call compassion, with Buddhists and Hindus ... because they can always say you are being punished for past lives (not just past sins).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.