Does math exist?

[Solomon Zorn]

I think I disagree about math not being perfect. I think it is perfect, but incomplete.

You said it is not even the only one. But another one (like what? Base Twelve or something?) would simply use other symbols for the same constructs.

I really don't think there is much disagreement here, except on semantics. All of us would probably agree that the universe exists regardless of human perception. Unless there is a semantic problem with the word, "exists".

As an uneducated hick though, I am put off by a lot of the arguing-at-the-person that takes place on these boards. Name-calling is beneath all of us.

[Plu]

You said it is not even the only one. But another one (like what? Base Twelve or something?) would simply use other symbols for the same constructs.

Actually the way the Romans handled things was pretty wildly different from any numbers system we have today. Although that may well have been their downfall as well.

Different numbers systems are widely used today, computer sciences still commonly uses binary and hexadecimal (16 digit) number systems.

Clocks and time also still use a pretty interesting mess of concepts and measurements.

The fact you can have multiple different maths that do pretty much the same thing show that math is a human construct, not a universal constant. Now whether the concept behind math is perfect... I don't know. I guess not, since the concept behind math is just describing what we see happen in the world.

[Solomon Zorn]

I guess I would say that mathematical symbols are a human construct, but the patterns being described are indeed a "universal constant". So the language is written in everything, so to speak. I think it's more discovery than invention.

So I come down on the side of "Math Exists". In fact I think it may be the only thing that does.

But I'm just an uneducated hick.

[Colanth]

Quantities exist.  Relationships exist.  But math is purely a human construct - a language.

[josephpalazzo]

Quantities exist.  Relationships exist.  But math is purely a human construct - a language.

I couldn't have said it better. Can I steal that?  :P

[Solomon Zorn]

I think I may be having a definition problem with "math". If you define it to be the symbols and systems we use to describe the relationships between quantities, then I certainly agree that it is a human construct. But If you define it to BE the relationships and quantities, then I think it "exists".

But I am just an uneducated hick.

[Plu]

If you define it to BE the relationships and quantities, you're defining it completely different from most people, though.

[Solomon Zorn]

That is probably true. Like I said:uneducated hick. Thanks for discussing it with me. Not exactly dinner conversation around here. It's fun to articulate it all though. Helps me reason.

What word should I apply to the mathematically described relationships between quantities, if not "math"?

[Colanth]

What word should I apply to the mathematically described relationships between quantities, if not "math"?

Single word?  I can't think of one.  How about "the mathematically described relationships between quantities"?

[Colanth]

Quantities exist.  Relationships exist.  But math is purely a human construct - a language.

I couldn't have said it better. Can I steal that?  :P

Sure.  Send the royalty checks to the forum. :)

[stromboli]

Once again, Colanth nails it. I've made it a point to not post until after he does, just to look more astute by agreeing with him.  :-D

[Sal1981]

I think math is real in the same sense that language is real. Although I have a hard time defining abstractions themselves. And that stuff like the circumference of a circle divided by it's diameter gives an irrational constant number blows my mind. A lot of stuff in math does that for me.

[Solomon Zorn]

What word should I apply to the mathematically described relationships between quantities, if not "math"?

Single word?  I can't think of one.  How about "the mathematically described relationships between quantities"?

Can I call it the MDRBQ for short? 8-)

(A little uneducated hick humor.)

[Solomon Zorn]

Can I amend it to say, "mathematically described consistent patterns in the relationships between quantities"?

So MDCPRBQ is my acronym!  8-)  

(Oh, that felt good! - A little mental masturbation is healthy for an uneducated hick!)

[Colanth]

As long as you actually understand what you're doing (it sounds as if you do), have at it.