All lives matter?

[Shiranu]

Battle cry for dead cops in parade form? Ignore it.

http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/

http://blacklivesmatter.com/the-black-lives-matter-network-advocates-for-dignity-justice-and-respect/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/08/see-how-black-lives-matter-protesters-respond-to-sign-reportedly-advocating-violence-against-police/

http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-shooting-black-lives-matter-leaders-respond/

You seem to have issue with my criticism of it's toxic nature, it's negative effect on society, especially for the black community, and the rest of the flaws I point out.

Again, I only have an issue with this because you are holding BLM to a standard you criticize people for holding cops to... you want your cake and to eat it too (which to be fair, that phrase never made sense to me... why would you want a cake you cant eat?). You judge the entire BLM movement for it's bad seeds and, even worse, for how people perceive it (instead of what it actually does) while condemning people who believe the police are not a force for good and judge the forces as a whole for the actions of it's bad seeds (which unlike BLM, the higher up's protect).

[PickelledEggs]

Yes. I know. There are good people in the black lives matter community that want peace across the board.

Is this you denying that there are any flaws in the black lives matter community?

[Shiranu]

Yes. I know. There are good people in the black lives matter community that want peace across the board.

Is this you denying that there are any flaws in the black lives matter community?

Only if you are denying there are flaws in the police community. Otherwise, no.

The biggest difference is that the leaders of BLM address the actual flaws (obviously they don't address the black on black crime [as representatives of BLM anyways, though plenty of black right's activists do) since it is irrelevant to BLM) whereas many police forces cover up their crimes or give them paid leave. Or, in the case of so many of the cities around LA post Rodney King/LA riots, promote them to positions of power.


I will repeat this one more time, in hopefully a way that will make more sense...


-BLM does not address black on black crime as an organization because it is not their core focus. That said, members of the BLM have and do address these issues in more appropriate settings, such as with the AAPC, NAACP, the National Black MBA Association, and so on.
-The ALS Association does not address cancer or pneumonia as an organization because it is not their core focus. That said, members of the ALS Association do address these issues in more appropriate settings, such as... (insert cancer research organizations here).

This is why I kept on using that example; you are asking why organization x does not address issues outside of their cause and saying that as a criticism of them, when that is simply how any organization works.

[PickelledEggs]

I've never denied there are flaws in the police. I've even said it in this exact thread there are flaws in the police. If you read my post where I said 3 things that are good points about BLM, you would know that.

So again. Now your turn. What are some flaws in the BLM movement? I know we can come to some common ground here

[Shiranu]

Couldn't get the edit in in time. Ah well.

I've never denied there are flaws in the police. I've even said it in this exact thread there are flaws in the police. If you read my post where I said 3 things that are good points about BLM, you would know that.

So again. Now your turn. What are some flaws in the BLM movement? I know we can come to some common ground here

Didn't think you do believe that, wasn't the point I was trying to make.

As a whole, I would say a stronger core message and mission statement would be helpful, or at least pushing that statement harder than they have. A more concentrated media effort would also have gone a long way at the beginning, though I feel at this point it is getting too late as people have already made their mind up.

One criticism I have as a "white" male (who has never been accepted as one amongst whites because of my quarter non-white blood and foreign name) is that the BLM members online will often spit in your face (figuratively) for showing support for the movement, implying that you are just doing it because of white guilt or to look like you care. Thankfully I have never had this type of reaction in the real world, so I think that is more of a keyboard warrior thing, but keyboard warriors are unfortunately more-or-less the most visible aspect of the movement. More statements from the leaders showing that everyone is welcome would be appreciated, but if it's like alot of their messages it probably would never make the media anyways.

[PickelledEggs]

One criticism I have as a "white" male (who has never been accepted as one amongst whites because of my quarter non-white blood and foreign name) is that the BLM members online will often spit in your face (figuratively) for showing support for the movement, implying that you are just doing it because of white guilt or to look like you care.

Like I said. It's a non-inclusive ideology. Would you or would you not say there are double standards in the black lives movement? And why/why not?

[Shiranu]

Like I said. It's a non-inclusive ideology. Would you or would you not say there are double standards in the black lives movement? And why/why not?

It's really not though, no more than gays who tell me I have no right to be involved in their struggle ( and I have met just as many online as I have BLM who sat that). That doesn't mean the LGBT movement is non- inclusive for heterosexuals, it just means there are segments that feel so marginalized they don't want outsiders to help.

Edit: same with feminists, I have met one or two that feel that way. Otherwise every woman I have known is either indifferent that you are a decent human being, or finds it cool for a guy to identify with and support the movement.

I don't see any double standards, so I wouldn't say that, no.

[Sargon The Grape]

I agree that the movement hasn't done itself favours, but I would also argue having the entire mainstream media and society picking it apart for any and every flaw was not something that was overly helpful either. I think nearly any movement, good or bad, would be disliked if there were so many people looking to dislike it from the very beginning.

This is probably true. The Civil Rights movement seems to have had the same problems in many ways.

BLM, in the city I am in, has done charity work, peaceful protests, interacts perfectly fine with police, and so on.

Not good enough, dammit, not good enough! They can't be seen as paragons of virtue until they all become superheroes like Phoenix Jones!

No one ever mentions that huge majority that is working just as it should be though, the only attention are on the few bad seeds who then ruin the image of the entire movement. Which has it's ironic hypocrisy cranked to 10, when you consider certain posters say you cant judge all cops because a few are "bad seeds", but apparently judging the entire BLM movement for it's bad seeds is perfectly acceptable.

I've never been a fan of the "bad seeds" argument, and this goes for everyone on the forum that uses it. If the bad seeds are causing enough problems that they can hog all the attention, it's time to remove them from the ranks.

[Blackleaf]

Entire cities have gone up in flames over this movement. How in the Hell do you dismiss these people as "a few bad seeds?" Would you give Christians the same level of forgiveness if they torched up small businesses and homes every time they were "persecuted?" Oh, it's okay. Christians have built wells to provide clean water in Africa, so what if they have a few violent angry mobs a couple times a year?

[drunkenshoe]

What I'm hearing you say is "You're white, you can't understand the lives of black people, this is the way social change happens, you are not offering a solution, shut up."

NO, I didn't say you can't understand black people. I didn't tell you to shut up, I apologise and I know it sounded that way because I am pissed off about the general perception on this subject.

But yes this is how social change happens. It's NOT my idea, I hate it.

So apparently I can't understand the lives of black people. Most of them probably can't understand me. You certainly don't. How can you possibly understand what it was like growing up gay in the South in the 70's and 80's, when gays were arrested for "crimes against nature" and had their names listed in the local paper just for asking a guy out? Black people's families are black and share their experience as a black person, where gay people's families are not typically gay and often do not support you-- they sometimes disown you or send you to a psychiatrist so you can be "fixed." How can you understand what it is like being diagnosed with AIDS back before their was effective treatment, seeing your twenty-something year old friends die, knowing you're next, or your partner who gave you the virus is next, obsessing over every cough, every little purple bump, knowing people believe you and your friends deserve this, knowing the government is ignoring the problem? Black people get looked with suspicion, where I've had healthcare workers not want to touch me, much less regular people. I've participated in ACT UP, fought pharmaceutical companies, marched, protested, written letters to congress. I've been down the road of social activism. You don't know me. People like you don't get to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

Yes, I get it. You also mentioned about activism before. There is a big difference between your and their situation though. Please pay attention to me because I believe this is very important and makes all the difference. I also believe considering your field this is something you'd understand best.

-Black people born into a certain culture and big portion of that culture is about the history of a systematic atrocites commited to their people. And these actions have been regarded as LEGAL and DESERVED by tradition, RIGHT of white people law and supported by religious belief for hundreds of years.

They grow up learning -consciously and unconsciously- in that culture that a short time ago their people were sold, bought like cattle and even use like meat.  While there are other minorities that lived through similar histories, they are the only minority with this level of official stigma. There is no other.

This is a crippled identity from the beginning. This is pretty similar to the identities of the descendants of genocide survivors. GSO this is NOT something we can fully understand. What LGBT people face everywhere around the world is disgusting and this is not a contest of who is oppressed and struggled the most.

But most importantly, they are a whole independent people with their own culture. they live together and share this hatred, anger and history, the sense of other together in huge numbers and they are associated with everything negative as a reslt of strong bias.

But being gay and being black in this context have their differences.

-LGBT minority is NOT a community lgbt people born into. They choose to be a part of that community.
-They do not grow up with shared sense of history of anger and hatred until they realise their identity and enbrace it.
-Their realisation of their identity has countless various ways as many as the individuals in that community.
-They are not one community living somewhere as families and natural nuclear units.
-A white lgbt individual is not carrying his identity physically everywhere he goes at ever second. He has a chance to protect herself/himself; he can hide himself. (which is obvioulsy disgusting, I mean in some region or place he can cover by act) Someone with black skin colour does not have that option.

Add that the whole black culture and crime 'assocation' they are stigmatised with this only gets worse and worse.

No vigilante shoots a lgbt individual at sight because he might be dangerous. Because the negtaive assocations with these groups are different. Black people are undesrtood and accepted as the sole strong cause for crime in the USA.

So what happens? These people's collective background, their sense of community, culture; unity is completely different than other minorities. This is a fact. The collective pyschology and the collective identity of black people in this matter has no equal. Not in lgbt, but in other national minorities that survived genocide.

I know people are tired of hearing this, but this is the truth.

You are correct that BLM is following the life cycle of similar social movements. There is a place for marching, a place for outrage, a place for challenging the status quo. There is also thinking strategically, going beyond raising awareness, setting concrete goals, winning hearts and minds, pointing out commonality rather difference, demonstrating that we are all in this together. To do the later you have to be willing to release your grip on some of the labels, expand your group, change how you see yourself so other people can see you differently. Identity politics is one way to look at a situation but not the only way and I criticize people who are so committed to that ideology they cannot see alternatives. Identity politics can only take you so far and it has the real problem of doing exactly what I did in the first paragraph-- constantly dividing people into ever narrowing groups of identity, where the individuals who have suffered the most are deemed the most virtuous, and so cling to that suffering. I know this because I've lived it.

This^ is good. But that is all that it is. It's good, it is beautiful. But unfortunately, you are just describing an ideal, my friend. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, people don't work that way. Reality doesn't work that way. It never did.

My problem is this. Before ideologies, deliberate movements there are other causes and reasons feeding the violent reactions of such groups and this never gets the attention enough. From socio-economic profiles to bias and other reasons brought up in other threads. For example what Pops formulated. Probably it was the only sesnible thing addressed in this issue in the forum. But what people goes on and on with is just bulllshit based on their personal perspective in their safe space.

What pisses me off that while white people 'criticising' the angry outrage of certain groups, they almost never consider their own place in the society they live in. What is that?

In an America, Trump gets his way -or in another country with another Trump; take it as a symbol- WHITE PEOPEL'S LIFE WILL NOT CHANGE. Among white people, in this forum, there is always this reaction and perspective made from a SAFE PLACE. 'Shaking finger' at the anger and outrage keep saying how some ideology is wrong and describe what should be the ideal. Nothing about the reality.

Everybody makes fun of the concept of empathy. However if a black or a non white presidential candidate made hostile politics against white people it WOULDN'T BE that way. Suddenly, the safe place would shatter and there would be the same outrage and anger.

This is what I mean by sitting in front of a computer and pitching "Myeh I don't like it...this is hostile, angry...etc.". Why? Because the individual is not in any potential danger and he is watching what's happening as he is watching a freaking movie.

I know all about this from the country live in. This is not something unique to black and white mess. The 'first class' citizens never ever get the other side and they sit on their ass and whine and complain about how so wrong is all that is happening. How do you think IRA started to bomb. Or PKK in Turkey. Or other places.

This is also why I am so pessimist in general. Nobody hears minorities of any kind or take them seriously until the get into some threatening position. Which means violence. This is the ugly fucking truth. Nothing is given, but taken. Because nothing actually ever changes and they know this.

I don't think I need to repeat that this is not something I support or defend.

[drunkenshoe]

Bring up a good point and most of us on here will take it as a good point. No one is blockiing you from stating your positions, it just so happens that a bunch of your positions, the BLM movement.... your odd love for the third wave feminism movement.... to the point where you seem like you hate that you were born white and you hate that you were born male....

Oy vey...

This is probably the dumbest statement you have ever made in this forum. The bullshit you put up there is exactly the same with a religious freaking bigot coming back to someone supporting LGBT rights as 'Are you gay?! Why are you supporting this shit?' Or the same thing with 'blaming' an atheist supporting religous freedom with being a member of any religious group. Blaming me and Shiranu for 'defending' Islam. LOL

If you had a tiny bit of perspective, you could easily observe that in our little community ANYTHING out of a certain mainstream politics and set of opinions on gender issues or social issues is collectively suppressed.

This is what Shiranu is reacting all along, all this time. While you whine about tumblr and safe spaces, you and a several other members in the forum acts as if this is their own tumblr. You personally do a good job about this. You created a safe place.

Surprise, there is a huge amount of people that doesn't agree with you on those movements or some other issues and simply put, you can't put up with any different or opposing idea.


PS I really have no idea what happened to you in the last year, but you have completely changed. You are talking like those dumb people seeing the world in black and white, you used to get back with good responses. Considering you are in the process of becoming an individual, may be this is you. I don't know. I think it is just personal to me to see it. And no this is never about us agreeing on any topic.

[Sargon The Grape]

You created a safe place.

And that's why anyone who violates the sanctity of our safe space is banned on sight.

*snaps fingers*

Mods! Get to it!

[GSOgymrat]

NO, I didn't say you can't understand black people. I didn't tell you to shut up, I apologise and I know it sounded that way because I am pissed off about the general perception on this subject.

But yes this is how social change happens. It's NOT my idea, I hate it.


Yes, I get it. You also mentioned about activism before. There is a big difference between your and their situation though. Please pay attention to me because I believe this is very important and makes all the difference. I also believe considering your field this is something you'd understand best.

-Black people born into a certain culture and big portion of that culture is about the history of a systematic atrocites commited to their people. And these actions have been regarded as LEGAL and DESERVED by tradition, RIGHT of white people law and supported by religious belief for hundreds of years.

They grow up learning -consciously and unconsciously- in that culture that a short time ago their people were sold, bought like cattle and even use like meat.  While there are other minorities that lived through similar histories, they are the only minority with this level of official stigma. There is no other.

This is a crippled identity from the beginning. This is pretty similar to the identities of the descendants of genocide survivors. GSO this is NOT something we can fully understand. What LGBT people face everywhere around the world is disgusting and this is not a contest of who is oppressed and struggled the most.

But most importantly, they are a whole independent people with their own culture. they live together and share this hatred, anger and history, the sense of other together in huge numbers and they are associated with everything negative as a reslt of strong bias.

But being gay and being black in this context have their differences.

-LGBT minority is NOT a community lgbt people born into. They choose to be a part of that community.
-They do not grow up with shared sense of history of anger and hatred until they realise their identity and enbrace it.
-Their realisation of their identity has countless various ways as many as the individuals in that community.
-They are not one community living somewhere as families and natural nuclear units.
-A white lgbt individual is not carrying his identity physically everywhere he goes at ever second. He has a chance to protect herself/himself; he can hide himself. (which is obvioulsy disgusting, I mean in some region or place he can cover by act) Someone with black skin colour does not have that option.

Add that the whole black culture and crime 'assocation' they are stigmatised with this only gets worse and worse.

No vigilante shoots a lgbt individual at sight because he might be dangerous. Because the negtaive assocations with these groups are different. Black people are undesrtood and accepted as the sole strong cause for crime in the USA.

So what happens? These people's collective background, their sense of community, culture; unity is completely different than other minorities. This is a fact. The collective pyschology and the collective identity of black people in this matter has no equal. Not in lgbt, but in other national minorities that survived genocide.

I know people are tired of hearing this, but this is the truth.

Drunkenshoe, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I agree with what you wrote here. I accept that my understanding of the experience of black people in America is limited and I am working on it. I get BLM and I consider their cause righteous and their methods typical of other similar social movements. It's never perfect. For me though, while violence is to be expected, it isn't okay. I'm not ever going to give violence a pass simply because it is human nature. I also believe just because a group is oppressed doesn't mean their actions can't be criticized. To avoid doing so is patronizing.

I feel like because of my comment about empathy and my problem with identity politics people incorrectly think I've adopted others positions that I haven't. You are correct when you said what I'm talking about is an ideal, but I often operate from a place of idealism, a world of possibilities. I see the world in terms of ideas and no idea is beyond questioning, even if it hurts people's feelings, which I bend over backwards to avoid doing most of the time. I value empathy, I see the value of identity politics but I become frustrated when people only operate from that vantage point. I sincerely believe there is a problem in some areas of society, on the Left and Right, with groupthink, where you follow the narrative or you will be punished. That is my real beef.

What pisses me off that while white people 'criticising' the angry outrage of certain groups, they almost never consider their own place in the society they live in. What is that?

You know why. It's often difficult for people to view a situation from a vantage point other than their own when everything their experience is designed to support their current worldview. Why can't religious people just see a world with no god? It's not that easy. Add to that the fact black people are essentially telling white people, "You created this situation, you have privilege, you have the power in this society and therefore you have to change it." It isn't always easy accept.

[FaithIsFilth]

Entire cities have gone up in flames over this movement. How in the Hell do you dismiss these people as "a few bad seeds?" Would you give Christians the same level of forgiveness if they torched up small businesses and homes every time they were "persecuted?" Oh, it's okay. Christians have built wells to provide clean water in Africa, so what if they have a few violent angry mobs a couple times a year?

Yeah, I really don't like the "few bad seeds" argument either. Several people, here on this very forum have actually argued that blacks can not be racist by definition. It's impossible for black people to be racist. The reality is, blacks are actually the most racist people in all of the US, but you can't bring that reality up or people get really offended. BLM and their supporters by their own actions, are far worse than the modern day KKK, or the people flying Confederate flags that people here get so butthurt over. The level of racism in the black community is to be expected though, and there are good reasons why things are this way. Their racism is more understandable due to what they've been through as a people, so they often get a pass for their racism, and even I'll give them a pass and not just say fuck them because they are racists. When people just ignore things like those blacks in Milwaukee targeting random white people driving by to fuck up, and try to say that black people can't be racist, that's just stupid, and you're only shooting yourself in the foot and making it look like you are cool with black racism by acting like it doesn't exist.

[PickelledEggs]

Oy vey...

This is probably the dumbest statement you have ever made in this forum. The bullshit you put up there is exactly the same with a religious freaking bigot coming back to someone supporting LGBT rights as 'Are you gay?! Why are you supporting this shit?' Or the same thing with 'blaming' an atheist supporting religous freedom with being a member of any religious group. Blaming me and Shiranu for 'defending' Islam. LOL

If you had a tiny bit of perspective, you could easily observe that in our little community ANYTHING out of a certain mainstream politics and set of opinions on gender issues or social issues is collectively suppressed.

This is what Shiranu is reacting all along, all this time. While you whine about tumblr and safe spaces, you and a several other members in the forum acts as if this is their own tumblr. You personally do a good job about this. You created a safe place.

Surprise, there is a huge amount of people that doesn't agree with you on those movements or some other issues and simply put, you can't put up with any different or opposing idea.


PS I really have no idea what happened to you in the last year, but you have completely changed. You are talking like those dumb people seeing the world in black and white, you used to get back with good responses. Considering you are in the process of becoming an individual, may be this is you. I don't know. I think it is just personal to me to see it. And no this is never about us agreeing on any topic.

Can you explain to me what you think my position is on this? You give me the impression that you have zero clue.

And what happened to me is that I stopped blindly jumping in to movements because people's feelings are hurt and instead look at the issue more objectively and piece by piece.