what would be an actually good reason to believe in a god.

[Baruch]

Pistis...also a rhetorical technique.

The invisible God eh? Would that be at higher or lower frequency than the visible spectrum? ;)

Brings to mind a few things: One is a quote I think from the Gospel of Thomas, "The kingdom of heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not...."  Reminds me of Amun, the Hidden One of the Egyptian pantheon. Also reminds me of one of my favorite creation stories from ancient Judaism. The story of the Ain Soph Or, the endless light of God, and the Tzimtzum or great contraction where God carved out a space in the limitless light for creation to occur and hid himself behind 10 veils.

I am a Kabbalist.  If you want, I can kabbal something together ;-)

[Baruch]

Except that god has to first be proven to be real.  Faith is needed because there is no evidence for god's existence.

If god was real, there would be no need for faith.  If god was real, everyone would believe in god and there would be no disbelief.

!. Define proof
2. Prove proof ... zing!

[Baruch]

Personally, I don't give the bible any authority whatsoever.  So, trying to figure out what to do or how to act in the real world using the bible is hit-and-miss, at best.  (But yes, I have read it and even studied parts of it since it is referenced so often in this culture.)  Proof is, I agree with you on this, personal.  But that proof cannot be transferred to anybody else; sort of an unprovable proof.
And I see a three step evolution of the material in this material world.  First is the thought.  Everything material in this world was first a thought.  Then the thinker tried to make, or did make, the thought of thing.  Then the maker of said thing knows how to make that thing.  Example--someone thought of a table.  Then made a table even if it took many tries to make the table as it was thought of and then knowing; the person now knew he could make that table. 

I don't see any evidence of anything beyond the material world.  Spiritual stuff is mostly wishful thinking.  There is no soul--there is no spirit--these is nothing supernatural.

It will be interesting to see how Burach and Burach Jr. interact. :))  And I term you Burach Jr. only because he came here first.  I regard both of you as interesting and often thought provoking.

After all these years, you still can't spell my handle?  Sad.  Enjoy your protein slurry.  It is an inference that there is anything outside your mind.  A reasonable one, no doubt.  You could be Nixon in a jar, on Futurama ;-)

[Ananta Shesha]

Personally, I don't give the bible any authority whatsoever.  So, trying to figure out what to do or how to act in the real world using the bible is hit-and-miss, at best.  (But yes, I have read it and even studied parts of it since it is referenced so often in this culture.)  Proof is, I agree with you on this, personal.  But that proof cannot be transferred to anybody else; sort of an unprovable proof.
And I see a three step evolution of the material in this material world.  First is the thought.  Everything material in this world was first a thought.  Then the thinker tried to make, or did make, the thought of thing.  Then the maker of said thing knows how to make that thing.  Example--someone thought of a table.  Then made a table even if it took many tries to make the table as it was thought of and then knowing; the person now knew he could make that table. 

I don't see any evidence of anything beyond the material world.  Spiritual stuff is mostly wishful thinking.  There is no soul--there is no spirit--these is nothing supernatural.

It will be interesting to see how Burach and Burach Jr. interact. :))  And I term you Burach Jr. only because he came here first.  I regard both of you as interesting and often thought provoking.

I view the Bible through multiple lenses. Mainly as a 66 book conglomerate rock chip off in over 600 book much larger conglomerate rock, but I see it still contains some gold and silver ore for refining and a smattering of gems among the fossils...there's also all the coprolite one could hope to throw!

In your table example the thought was of a form/function and preexisting material is shaped and gathered to "create" the new form. No new material was created. So I see it as with God.

Isn't  Burach the lightening horse than Mohamed rode on through the heavens? Same iconography as the white horses that the saints right upon in Revelation, and the divine animal that Kalki, the last incarnation of Vishnu rides upon. So....thanks! ;)

[Ananta Shesha]

Jewish spiritual cycle ... first pray for repentance, then repent to enable good deeds, do good deeds including a return to prayer.  Ephesians was Messianic Jewish ... Gentile Christianity didn't exist when it was written.  Of course it is important to be meek/humble ... so if you do manage to pray, repent or do good deeds, don't take credit yourself, but credit the Source.

I can get behind that. :)

[Blackleaf]

Real is real whether proven or not.

You're still using the modern (bastardized) version of faith which is no different from man made belief. Unfortunately believers have made this their ignorance blanket.

Gotta go old school for usage., Ephesians 2:8 states we are saved by grace through faith, it is not of our own doing, it is a gift of God. Of, not from. A gift of gold is very different from a gift from gold.

The proof is a personal revelatory experience of God. That is the authoring of faith.
I see a three step evolution of mind, first there is believing, then comes knowing, then comes doing.

I guess God gave me faith, then he decided he wanted it back. Somebody should have told him, "no takebacksies."

[Ananta Shesha]

I guess God gave me faith, then he decided he wanted it back. Somebody should have told him, "no takebacksies."

So.... you received a divine revelation beyond your minds conjecture/thinking/belief and then...what...doubt it now? Understandable.

Or did you believe really really hard, found massive discrepancies in modern "faith" and now don't believe?  Also understandable.

[Mike Cl]

After all these years, you still can't spell my handle?  Sad.  Enjoy your protein slurry.  It is an inference that there is anything outside your mind.  A reasonable one, no doubt.  You could be Nixon in a jar, on Futurama ;-)

Yeah, Baruch, it is what--20 yrs or more we have been yacking at one another??  Yeah, sad I misspelled your handle.  But I fixed that sadness.  I was using a keyboard that had the a,w,e,r s.t,i,d, o, and n keys worn away from constant use.  The games Fallout (series) and Skyrim will do that.  Fixed it yesterday when I received my keyboard stickers from Amazon.  Much better now.  I do touch type, but having those keys filled in makes it easier.  No more sadness.

[Baruch]

Yeah, Baruch, it is what--20 yrs or more we have been yacking at one another??  Yeah, sad I misspelled your handle.  But I fixed that sadness.  I was using a keyboard that had the a,w,e,r s.t,i,d, o, and n keys worn away from constant use.  The games Fallout (series) and Skyrim will do that.  Fixed it yesterday when I received my keyboard stickers from Amazon.  Much better now.  I do touch type, but having those keys filled in makes it easier.  No more sadness.

Some of my keys are worn to illegibility too.  So many posts, so little time!  But since I type gibberish, it is unnecessary for me to avoid mis-typing ;-)

[Mike Cl]

Some of my keys are worn to illegibility too.  So many posts, so little time!  But since I type gibberish, it is unnecessary for me to avoid mis-typing ;-)

I tried ink, but that did not work.  Stickers seem to work well and they are cheap to use--cheaper than a new keyboard.

[Sorginak]

Or  you could just learn to type without looking at the keyboard, as I did during typing class in high school. 

[Blackleaf]

So.... you received a divine revelation beyond your minds conjecture/thinking/belief and then...what...doubt it now? Understandable.

Or did you believe really really hard, found massive discrepancies in modern "faith" and now don't believe?  Also understandable.

The discrepancies came after I freed myself from my ~24 years of brainwashing. Before then, I was a kid who was really curious about God and spiritual things. At around age 18, I devoted my life to serving God. I did so not out of obligation, but because I wanted to please God. I prayed every day, I volunteered in several ministries, but God remained silent. He didn't respond to my prayers, he didn't help when my problems grew worse and worse, including my depression. If anything, it seemed like he was trying to drive me away. Eventually, I decided that if God was going to treat me like shit, I was not going to worship him.

[Mike Cl]

Or  you could just learn to type without looking at the keyboard, as I did during typing class in high school.

That's what I said--I touch type.  Learned in HS myself--53 yrs ago.  Also sharpened that skill in college--Bus. minor.  But I still find it helpful, especially with computer games, that my keys be legible.  Skyrim and Fallout 4 can induce to panic at times, and touch typing goes out the window. :)

[Mike Cl]

I view the Bible through multiple lenses. Mainly as a 66 book conglomerate rock chip off in over 600 book much larger conglomerate rock, but I see it still contains some gold and silver ore for refining and a smattering of gems among the fossils...there's also all the coprolite one could hope to throw!

In your table example the thought was of a form/function and preexisting material is shaped and gathered to "create" the new form. No new material was created. So I see it as with God.

So, if god does not create new material where does new material come from?

[Baruch]

The discrepancies came after I freed myself from my ~24 years of brainwashing. Before then, I was a kid who was really curious about God and spiritual things. At around age 18, I devoted my life to serving God. I did so not out of obligation, but because I wanted to please God. I prayed every day, I volunteered in several ministries, but God remained silent. He didn't respond to my prayers, he didn't help when my problems grew worse and worse, including my depression. If anything, it seemed like he was trying to drive me away. Eventually, I decided that if God was going to treat me like shit, I was not going to worship him.

Exactly what happened to Moses ... driven into the desert by Pharaoh.  Nothing changed for 40 years ... until the burning bush.  By that time Moses was 80.