Excellet article on the Tea Party and racism in America

[widdershins]

I just read a very good article on Huffington Post about the start real beginnings of the Tea Party, suggesting that its rise was not just inevitable, but actually orchestrated by rich corporate interests, specifically the Koch Brothers (unlike a Faux News piece, there's actual evidence to support it).

It is filled with all kinds of things I had never known/thought about.  For instance, the Boston Tea Party was not about tea being taxed TOO MUCH, it was about a huge TAX BREAK the crown had given to the East India Trading Company to allow them to undercut tea prices of every other small trader in America.  They were actually fighting against the largest corporate tax cut in history at the time, which threatened a complete corporate takeover of the market.

And, though the Tea Party didn't gain national recognition until 2008, David Koch's CSE actually purchased the Tea Party domain in 2002 in preparation, knowing it would come in handy once there was a Democrat in office again.

Very long article, but excellent read.

[Jack89]

Or maybe it's about criminals, welfare cheats, illegal aliens and sharia law.  Are people suppose to ignore injustices and crimes because racism can be implied?  That's the problem with progressives nowadays, they're so obsessed with trying to see issues through PC glasses, that they ignore serious problems.  We've seen the problems in Europe because the doors have been open to everyone, bringing people who refuse to integrate and try to force the culture they're fleeing onto Europeans.  Sharia Law is part of that incompatible culture. Why is it racist to point that out?  I couldn't care less about DNA, but that's the focus of progressives. 

[widdershins]

Or maybe it's about criminals, welfare cheats, illegal aliens and sharia law.  Are people suppose to ignore injustices and crimes because racism can be implied?  That's the problem with progressives nowadays, they're so obsessed with trying to see issues through PC glasses, that they ignore serious problems.  We've seen the problems in Europe because the doors have been open to everyone, bringing people who refuse to integrate and try to force the culture they're fleeing onto Europeans.  Sharia Law is part of that incompatible culture. Why is it racist to point that out?  I couldn't care less about DNA, but that's the focus of progressives. 

Welcome to 18th and 19th century America.  You are giving the SAME arguments which were once given against Jews, Irish, Chinese and Catholics coming to America more than a hundred years ago.  America was FOUNDED ON the doors being open to everyone.  The invitation is still in the lower levels of the Statue of Liberty.  America was once referred to as "the great melting pot".

Shariah Law is about as much a threat to America as the aliens from Independence Day.  It's not going to happen.  It's unconstitutional.  As for it being "racist", I'm not going run in circles arguing about thinly veiled racism disguised as fear of other things.  The FACT is that I have NEVER seen a president so poorly treated as our current president.  NEVER before have I heard tales of members of the armed forces blatantly stating under what conditions they would not obey the president.  NEVER have I seen parents refuse to send their kids to school because the president was visiting the school that day.  We've had Democrats in office before.  Nobody did that when Bill Clinton visited schools.  No politicians got in Clinton's face and shook their finger at him.  No politicians interrupted his speeches.  And I never heard talk of impeaching a guy 2 months BEFORE he was even elected the first time, like I did with Obama.  This level of blatant disrespect is brand new because something about this president is different.  Are you really telling me, "These are not the racists you're looking for" and expecting it to work?

[Jack89]

Welcome to 18th and 19th century America.  You are giving the SAME arguments which were once given against Jews, Irish, Chinese and Catholics coming to America more than a hundred years ago.  America was FOUNDED ON the doors being open to everyone.  The invitation is still in the lower levels of the Statue of Liberty.  America was once referred to as "the great melting pot".

Shariah Law is about as much a threat to America as the aliens from Independence Day.  It's not going to happen.  It's unconstitutional.  As for it being "racist", I'm not going run in circles arguing about thinly veiled racism disguised as fear of other things.  The FACT is that I have NEVER seen a president so poorly treated as our current president.  NEVER before have I heard tales of members of the armed forces blatantly stating under what conditions they would not obey the president.  NEVER have I seen parents refuse to send their kids to school because the president was visiting the school that day.  We've had Democrats in office before.  Nobody did that when Bill Clinton visited schools.  No politicians got in Clinton's face and shook their finger at him.  No politicians interrupted his speeches.  And I never heard talk of impeaching a guy 2 months BEFORE he was even elected the first time, like I did with Obama.  This level of blatant disrespect is brand new because something about this president is different.  Are you really telling me, "These are not the racists you're looking for" and expecting it to work?

Calling someone a racist doesn't make it so.  Europe is facing issues with Sharia law as demonstrated by news reports of Sharia councils in the UK.  Look it up.  I was reading just this morning that a PM possibility for the UK, Theresa May, was saying that Sharia law was in some cases beneficial.  Nice.  Expecting immigrants who want to come live in your country to learn the language and integrate into the local culture isn't unreasonable and isn't racist.  If a group is attempting to bring their culture and their laws, expecting the country to change, then it entirely reasonable to the natives to reject the change.  It may turn out that the new culture perseveres over time, but if it does in this case, it will be because Europeans allowed it and they'll be the ones that have to change. 

People are gravitating to Trump and his almost inconceivable success because they think their culture and their rights are being threatened.  I suspect it's the same reason Brexit passed.  I personally don't like Trump and won't be voting for him, but I certainly understand why he is so popular. 

And what is it about the KKK?  Why do SJWs harp on a dying, powerless organization that has less that 6,000 members?  They're a joke nowadays.  Is it the name recognition? 

[widdershins]

Calling someone a racist doesn't make it so.

No, the fact that they're racists makes them racist, and many in the GOP have gone out of their way to express racist views recently, usually thinly veiled behind other reasons for their vitriol.  Trump doesn't veil his racism.  He denies that he's racist, but he doesn't actually veil his racism and he is very popular with wildly racist people.

Europe is facing issues with Sharia law as demonstrated by news reports of Sharia councils in the UK.  Look it up.  I was reading just this morning that a PM possibility for the UK, Theresa May, was saying that Sharia law was in some cases beneficial.  Nice.

I don't live in Europe.  How they treat Islamic beliefs says nothing about the laws my country was founded on which make Shariah Law a total non-issue, starting with the First Amendment, which expressly prohibits Congress or any other branch of government from setting up Shariah Law on any level.

Expecting immigrants who want to come live in your country to learn the language and integrate into the local culture isn't unreasonable and isn't racist.

Isn't it?  Is America not known as "The Land of the Free"?  Are YOU not allowed to speak whatever language you prefer?  Are YOU not allowed to create some crazy, ridiculous culture and live it as you see fit?  Does the law require YOU to conform with the majority in the country?  But fucking foreigners, THEY should have a special requirement to conform, right?  Yeah, that doesn't sound racist or unreasonable at all.

If a group is attempting to bring their culture and their laws, expecting the country to change, then it entirely reasonable to the natives to reject the change.  It may turn out that the new culture perseveres over time, but if it does in this case, it will be because Europeans allowed it and they'll be the ones that have to change.

OF COURSE they are going to bring their culture.  But their LAWS?  Don't be ridiculous.  You don't just "bring laws" into a country.  You have to have them legally enacted.  And are they expecting the country to change?  I'm sure some of them are, and they are FREE to have that dumbass expectation which is never, EVER going to come to pass.  And the "natives rejecting the change" is an ENTIRELY different conversation than "keeping them out of the country in the first place".  You seem to be arguing that the mentality "One they're hear, I'm not changing" being okay is somehow reason for the "Keep them out" stand.  The reality is they are separate, unrelated things.  You can have one OR the other, not both.  You can't "not change once they're here" if you don't let them "come here".

People are gravitating to Trump and his almost inconceivable success because they think their culture and their rights are being threatened.  I suspect it's the same reason Brexit passed.  I personally don't like Trump and won't be voting for him, but I certainly understand why he is so popular.

Yeah, they are gravitating toward Trump for the same reason Brexit passed.  There is a growing xenophobia, especially surrounding Muslims, and blatant racism, which is manifesting right now in Britain.  I read an article just yesterday about three Brits going off on a racist rant on the subway telling a man to "Go back to Africa".  Brexit has emboldened the racists because, like Trump, the rhetoric driving it, while not openly being racist, has massive appeal to racists.

And what is it about the KKK?  Why do SJWs harp on a dying, powerless organization that has less that 6,000 members?  They're a joke nowadays.  Is it the name recognition? 

I'm not an SJW, so I can't answer that and, frankly don't see the relevance in the question.

[Hydra009]

Expecting immigrants who want to come live in your country to learn the language and integrate into the local culture isn't unreasonable and isn't racist.

English is part of the US naturalization test, so basic english proficiency is definitely a requirement.  But we don't have an official language, and there are communities that predominantly speak other languages, like Spanish. So being completely fluent isn't necessary, though it is extremely useful.

As for integrating into the local culture, as a liberal atheist living in the Bible Belt, the local culture isn't really a high mark to shoot for.  If anything, expressing hateful religious zealotry shows a highly successful attempt at blending in.  :P

If a group is attempting to bring their culture and their laws, expecting the country to change, then it entirely reasonable to the natives to reject the change.

How many immigrants are actually like that?  I dunno about Europe, but that's definitely not the case in the US.

[Johan]

Welcome to 18th and 19th century America.  You are giving the SAME arguments which were once given against Jews, Irish, Chinese and Catholics coming to America more than a hundred years ago.

Jewish isn't a race. Neither is Catholic or Irish or Chinese. I think I get what you're saying i.e. we have historically always needed a group to hate. But that doesn't excuse any of it nor does it make any of it right.

America was FOUNDED ON the doors being open to everyone. 

True, it was. But why does that mean we can never waver from that? There are a lot of things that existed when America was formed that don't exist anymore. And even though I'm asking this, I'm not saying we should waver from that right now. I'm just saying tons of things have changed since we started and if/when there comes to time that we should no longer be such a 'melting pot' we should be willing and able to adapt.

Shariah Law is about as much a threat to America as the aliens from Independence Day.  It's not going to happen.  It's unconstitutional. 

What is unconstitutional in this country is entirely fluid and changeable. We're a long way off from it, but get to the point where Islam is the dominant religion here and things could look very different politically.

[widdershins]

Jewish isn't a race. Neither is Catholic or Irish or Chinese. I think I get what you're saying i.e. we have historically always needed a group to hate. But that doesn't excuse any of it nor does it make any of it right.

I think you joined in the middle of the conversation here.  First, I didn't actually call any of those ethnicities "races", nor did I insinuate Catholicism was a race or ethnicity.  The conversation was actually about Muslims, which is also not a race or ethnicity and my comment was meant to point out that the arguments against letting Muslims into the country, that they would somehow expect the culture to change and that Shariah Law would be a real threat, are no different than the arguments made against many other groups (not races or necessarily even ethnicities") throughout our history.  The point was that doomsday didn't come when we let Catholics in, it's not going to come by letting in the group to hate today.

True, it was. But why does that mean we can never waver from that? There are a lot of things that existed when America was formed that don't exist anymore. And even though I'm asking this, I'm not saying we should waver from that right now. I'm just saying tons of things have changed since we started and if/when there comes to time that we should no longer be such a 'melting pot' we should be willing and able to adapt.

Of course things are going to change.  But America being a "melting pot" is one thing that should never change.  We NEED diversity.  Diversity is the killer of bigotry.  If America ever becomes less diverse then bigotry will see a resurgence instead of being the dying breed it is now.  That would be very bad for us, as a people and a culture.

What is unconstitutional in this country is entirely fluid and changeable. We're a long way off from it, but get to the point where Islam is the dominant religion here and things could look very different politically.

Even if that were to happen, which is entirely possible, there still wouldn't be Shariah Law in America.  The Constitution is not so "fluid" as you believe it to be.  It is VERY difficult to change the Constitution.

But that aside, Christianity is by far the dominant religion in America today, yet they're losing the stranglehold they've had on our culture for centuries anyway.  State-sponsored bigotry is disappearing fast.  Even though the dominant belief system is heavily against gays, they're still winning in court over the majority.  That is because the courts have been slowly moving toward applying the Constitution uniformly rather than through the filter of Christianity.  The religious majority has less influence on the laws than ever.  I don't see that changing if the majority religion changes flavors.

And EVEN IF you get by that hurdle you still have a populace which has spent a few generations acclimating to the culture.  A lot of American Muslim women can't be picked out in a crowd.  They don't wear funny clothes.  They aren't escorted by a man everywhere they go.  They speak out for women's rights.  They have the right to work, the right to drive, the right to an education, the right to refuse a marriage and women are unlikely going to give that up willingly after growing up with those rights.

I'm simply stating that Islam is not the dire threat to our "culture" that opponents make it out to be.  Shariah Law is not a threat in America.  It's just not going to happen.  Shariah Law absolutely requires an uneducated populace and a subjugated female population afraid to speak out.  What that means is that you would have to make it legal for men to beat, rape, mutilate and kill their women so that the women are too afraid to go against the men and, thus, would vote to make it legal for the men to beat, rape, mutilate and kill their women.  You can't have one without having the other first.  There will NEVER be Shariah Law in America.  If I'm wrong about that then I'm becoming Muslim anyway because ti would take a fucking miracle for America to become subject to Shariah Law.  That would be proof enough for me that there's a god and his name is Allah.