Is God a Moral Monster? - Slavery in the Old Testament

[Unbeliever]

Whenever Randy posts I get a feeling of deja poo - the notion that I've heard this crap before...

[Mike Cl]

One redeeming feature he has is that he doesn't know where any of us live...

:)))))  Thank God!!

[widdershins]

Randy's god is a reflection of himself...

You know, this brings up an interesting thought.  I don't formally know anything about psychology, but a friend of mine in high school introduced me to the concept of "social circles" and since then I've had a fascination with observing and contemplating behavior, and this particular comment is interesting.

Think about Hitler.  Did Hitler think he was a monster?  Probably not.  He probably believed himself to be a decent person and justified the horrible acts he committed to himself.  So if you think of God as a reflection of yourself in that context, it makes total sense.  God did horrible things.  Mass murders (It's his creation!  He can do what he wants with it!) and, in this thread, advocating slavery (People thought differently back then).  God as a reflection of one's self completely fits here.  You see the horrible things he's done, but you don't think of him as a monster.  You have excuses for all of it and even if those excuses are weak you stick with them, you believe them, you hold onto them because nobody wants to look at their reflection and see a monster looking back.

[Mike Cl]

You know, this brings up an interesting thought.  I don't formally know anything about psychology, but a friend of mine in high school introduced me to the concept of "social circles" and since then I've had a fascination with observing and contemplating behavior, and this particular comment is interesting.

Think about Hitler.  Did Hitler think he was a monster?  Probably not.  He probably believed himself to be a decent person and justified the horrible acts he committed to himself.  So if you think of God as a reflection of yourself in that context, it makes total sense.  God did horrible things.  Mass murders (It's his creation!  He can do what he wants with it!) and, in this thread, advocating slavery (People thought differently back then).  God as a reflection of one's self completely fits here.  You see the horrible things he's done, but you don't think of him as a monster.  You have excuses for all of it and even if those excuses are weak you stick with them, you believe them, you hold onto them because nobody wants to look at their reflection and see a monster looking back.

^This. 
To add to that--From what I remember reading about Hitler, he saw himself almost as a savior; certainly as a right-thinking and moral man.  He was simply doing the hard, dirty, and righteous work that a good strong leader has to do.  He was clearly racist, but saw that as a virtue.  I'm sure Stalin was much the same; and remember, Stalin was quite far into the priesthood program when he quit.  And he did not stop the Russian Orthodox church from doing it's work.  I really do think Repeater Randy is a reflection of his god and his church.  He sees himself as a strong, moral, godly man, who has total belief and faith in the goodness of both god and church.  He would have loved to have been a Dark Ages Inquisitor!  Dubya was much the same.  He made decisions with his gut; had a strong belief that he was right and faith in that method.  Reasoning and critical thinking just did not fit.  So too, for the deeply religious in  any era or religion. 

[widdershins]

^This. 
To add to that--From what I remember reading about Hitler, he saw himself almost as a savior; certainly as a right-thinking and moral man.  He was simply doing the hard, dirty, and righteous work that a good strong leader has to do.  He was clearly racist, but saw that as a virtue.  I'm sure Stalin was much the same; and remember, Stalin was quite far into the priesthood program when he quit.  And he did not stop the Russian Orthodox church from doing it's work.  I really do think Repeater Randy is a reflection of his god and his church.  He sees himself as a strong, moral, godly man, who has total belief and faith in the goodness of both god and church.  He would have loved to have been a Dark Ages Inquisitor!  Dubya was much the same.  He made decisions with his gut; had a strong belief that he was right and faith in that method.  Reasoning and critical thinking just did not fit.  So too, for the deeply religious in  any era or religion. 

Faith is the absolute dumbest thing ever.  We often oversimplify it by saying it's belief without evidence.  Sometimes we'll nudge a little closer to the truth and say it's belief in spite of the evidence.  But really, it's not even that noble a concept.  Faith is absolute belief that you are right and an utter unwillingness to hear otherwise.  Faith is stubbornness and price.  Faith is choosing ignorance while, in the case of some, going out of one's way to learn, perhaps even massive amounts of information, so that you can defend that ignorance.  Faith essentially is ignorance.

I've often had the religious tell me that I have faith.  Of course, it's a common (and misguided) claim that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to believe in God.  I won't get into how stupid that is (you all know that) and will only briefly mention that, faith being a virtue, this actually means that atheists are more virtuous than believers.

But no, I don't have faith.  I don't have faith that when I flip the switch the light is going to come one.  I believe it will.  That's why I'm flipping the switch.  But I don't have faith that it will and for two very good reasons.  The first is that most of the time throughout my life when I flipped a light switch a light comes on.  That doesn't take faith, that's common sense based on observation and a basic understanding of how the switch and light bulb work.  The second is that there have been times when I have flipped the switch and the light did not come on.  I know that light can, and some day will fail me.  It's not a conscious thought I have when flipping light switches, but I know that light bulbs eventually fail, again because of the basic understanding of how they work.

And no, when I'm driving down the road I don't have faith in the driver in the lane next to me.  I have seen accidents.  I have been in accidents.  I know car accidents happen so when there is someone in the lane next to me I am more alert, ready for that driver to make a mistake, ready to react should that happen.  And NOT having that faith has saved me from more car accidents than I can count because, frankly, other drivers are idiots.  I actually DO NOT expect them to remember the basic rules of driving I learned in driver's education many years ago.  I have seen many, many times that most drivers don't know how a stop sign and a left turn is supposed to work (or even the stop sign itself, for that matter).  I have seen many times where I am turning left and there is a line of cars across from me turning right and all the drivers past the first think that it's forever their turn because they stopped when the first car did.  They believe that means that they "stopped at the stop sign".  And they believe that, no matter what order you stop in, the guy turning left waits for absolutely everyone else, forever, if necessary.  So no, I don't have faith in the other driver.  Not even a little.  He's a moron until he proves he knows how to drive and NOT having faith has kept me out of countless car accidents.

So if you tell me you "have faith" in something, what you're really telling me is that you're an idiot.  Faith is stupid.  Faith is ignorance incarnate.  It is not a virtue, it is a detriment to all of humanity.  Faith makes you waste your life wallowing in ignorance.  Faith makes you underestimate those around you.  Faith makes you trust when your brain says you shouldn't.  People who tell you that you have to have faith, they're used car salesmen saying, "Trust me!"  Sure, maybe once in a while you can and it's all good.  But personally, I'd rather have the written guarantee.

[Mike Cl]

Faith is the absolute dumbest thing ever.  We often oversimplify it by saying it's belief without evidence.  Sometimes we'll nudge a little closer to the truth and say it's belief in spite of the evidence.  But really, it's not even that noble a concept.  Faith is absolute belief that you are right and an utter unwillingness to hear otherwise.  Faith is stubbornness and price.  Faith is choosing ignorance while, in the case of some, going out of one's way to learn, perhaps even massive amounts of information, so that you can defend that ignorance.  Faith essentially is ignorance.

I've often had the religious tell me that I have faith.  Of course, it's a common (and misguided) claim that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to believe in God.  I won't get into how stupid that is (you all know that) and will only briefly mention that, faith being a virtue, this actually means that atheists are more virtuous than believers.

But no, I don't have faith.  I don't have faith that when I flip the switch the light is going to come one.  I believe it will.  That's why I'm flipping the switch.  But I don't have faith that it will and for two very good reasons.  The first is that most of the time throughout my life when I flipped a light switch a light comes on.  That doesn't take faith, that's common sense based on observation and a basic understanding of how the switch and light bulb work.  The second is that there have been times when I have flipped the switch and the light did not come on.  I know that light can, and some day will fail me.  It's not a conscious thought I have when flipping light switches, but I know that light bulbs eventually fail, again because of the basic understanding of how they work.

And no, when I'm driving down the road I don't have faith in the driver in the lane next to me.  I have seen accidents.  I have been in accidents.  I know car accidents happen so when there is someone in the lane next to me I am more alert, ready for that driver to make a mistake, ready to react should that happen.  And NOT having that faith has saved me from more car accidents than I can count because, frankly, other drivers are idiots.  I actually DO NOT expect them to remember the basic rules of driving I learned in driver's education many years ago.  I have seen many, many times that most drivers don't know how a stop sign and a left turn is supposed to work (or even the stop sign itself, for that matter).  I have seen many times where I am turning left and there is a line of cars across from me turning right and all the drivers past the first think that it's forever their turn because they stopped when the first car did.  They believe that means that they "stopped at the stop sign".  And they believe that, no matter what order you stop in, the guy turning left waits for absolutely everyone else, forever, if necessary.  So no, I don't have faith in the other driver.  Not even a little.  He's a moron until he proves he knows how to drive and NOT having faith has kept me out of countless car accidents.

So if you tell me you "have faith" in something, what you're really telling me is that you're an idiot.  Faith is stupid.  Faith is ignorance incarnate.  It is not a virtue, it is a detriment to all of humanity.  Faith makes you waste your life wallowing in ignorance.  Faith makes you underestimate those around you.  Faith makes you trust when your brain says you shouldn't.  People who tell you that you have to have faith, they're used car salesmen saying, "Trust me!"  Sure, maybe once in a while you can and it's all good.  But personally, I'd rather have the written guarantee.

^This.  Yep, yep and yep!!

[Blackleaf]

Faith is the absolute dumbest thing ever.  We often oversimplify it by saying it's belief without evidence.  Sometimes we'll nudge a little closer to the truth and say it's belief in spite of the evidence.  But really, it's not even that noble a concept.  Faith is absolute belief that you are right and an utter unwillingness to hear otherwise.  Faith is stubbornness and price.  Faith is choosing ignorance while, in the case of some, going out of one's way to learn, perhaps even massive amounts of information, so that you can defend that ignorance.  Faith essentially is ignorance.

I've often had the religious tell me that I have faith.  Of course, it's a common (and misguided) claim that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to believe in God.  I won't get into how stupid that is (you all know that) and will only briefly mention that, faith being a virtue, this actually means that atheists are more virtuous than believers.

But no, I don't have faith.  I don't have faith that when I flip the switch the light is going to come one.  I believe it will.  That's why I'm flipping the switch.  But I don't have faith that it will and for two very good reasons.  The first is that most of the time throughout my life when I flipped a light switch a light comes on.  That doesn't take faith, that's common sense based on observation and a basic understanding of how the switch and light bulb work.  The second is that there have been times when I have flipped the switch and the light did not come on.  I know that light can, and some day will fail me.  It's not a conscious thought I have when flipping light switches, but I know that light bulbs eventually fail, again because of the basic understanding of how they work.

And no, when I'm driving down the road I don't have faith in the driver in the lane next to me.  I have seen accidents.  I have been in accidents.  I know car accidents happen so when there is someone in the lane next to me I am more alert, ready for that driver to make a mistake, ready to react should that happen.  And NOT having that faith has saved me from more car accidents than I can count because, frankly, other drivers are idiots.  I actually DO NOT expect them to remember the basic rules of driving I learned in driver's education many years ago.  I have seen many, many times that most drivers don't know how a stop sign and a left turn is supposed to work (or even the stop sign itself, for that matter).  I have seen many times where I am turning left and there is a line of cars across from me turning right and all the drivers past the first think that it's forever their turn because they stopped when the first car did.  They believe that means that they "stopped at the stop sign".  And they believe that, no matter what order you stop in, the guy turning left waits for absolutely everyone else, forever, if necessary.  So no, I don't have faith in the other driver.  Not even a little.  He's a moron until he proves he knows how to drive and NOT having faith has kept me out of countless car accidents.

So if you tell me you "have faith" in something, what you're really telling me is that you're an idiot.  Faith is stupid.  Faith is ignorance incarnate.  It is not a virtue, it is a detriment to all of humanity.  Faith makes you waste your life wallowing in ignorance.  Faith makes you underestimate those around you.  Faith makes you trust when your brain says you shouldn't.  People who tell you that you have to have faith, they're used car salesmen saying, "Trust me!"  Sure, maybe once in a while you can and it's all good.  But personally, I'd rather have the written guarantee.

Posts like this make me glad I joined this forum. Very good points. It's true. When I flip the light switch when the power is out, I don't try to justify to myself that the light is actually on. I don't go to forums and argue for why my light is, in fact, on. I see that it is off, despite my expectations, and I move on. Too bad people are incapable of doing the same with their religion.

[widdershins]

I always love when someone here sums up my wordy posts in a few short sentences.  To the point.  I wish I could do that.

[21CIconoclast]

Whenever Randy posts I get a feeling of deja poo - the notion that I've heard this crap before...

Speaking of the pseudo-christian Randy Carson, has anyone seen him of late?  Or, did logic, reason, historicity, embarrassment, and biblical axioms run him off? LOL

[Mr.Obvious]

Speaking of the pseudo-christian Randy Carson, has anyone seen him of late?  Or, did logic, reason, historicity, embarrassment, and biblical axioms run him off? LOL

Purgatory

[21CIconoclast]

Purgatory

Hmmm, wonder which one is Randy Carson in this Purgatory vision of yet another made up
scenario by the Catholics?  Albeit, Randy's number is a long wait to be judged by the serial killer Jesus!

Thank Zeus that the Kool Aide of pseudo-christianity is getting more bitter by the day!

[widdershins]

Ah, Purgatory.  I'm afraid to ask what it will take to get him out.  Is there a financial settlement or do I have to suck off some priest?  The price of getting someone out of Purgatory through the years has varied greatly from time to time and priest to priest.  The only constant throughout the centuries is that, yes, you CAN buy someone's way into Heaven out of Purgatory.