History of Christian Bible

[Baruch]

Most recent historians believe that most of the persecuted were Isis worshippers ... and that some Jesus worshippers (mostly Jews) may have been arsonists ... because the Bible says that when G-d comes again, he will destroy with fire, not water.  Of course the Romans didn't need crazy messianic Jews to assist with urban renewal ... the first fire company in Rome, was formed by the organized crime unit of Crassus, who would have some of his men start your apartment building on fire, and then show up with his fire suppression team ... and he would put them in action if you paid his protection money.  A perfect capitalist.

[Mike Cl]

Pushing on to Mara Bar-Serapion:

"The writer, Mara Bar-Serapion, was in prison at the time, and he wrote the letter to exhort his son to seek wisdom. The following quotation from the letter is sometimes cited as evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was mentioned in contemporary secular documents:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given (quoted by F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? Eerdmans Publishing Co., Fifth Revised Edition, p. 114).

Bruce, an often-quoted Christian apologist, noted that this letter was "written some time later than A. D. 73, but how much later we cannot be sure" (Ibid.). He, of course, wants to see this letter as proof of the historicity of Jesus, but by his own admission, the document was written at least 40 years after the time that Jesus allegedly lived and possibly even later. Since Bar-Serapion made no claim in his letter that he had personally witnessed the execution of the "wise king" or had ever even seen him, his statement cannot in any sense be considered firsthand testimony of the historicity of Jesus, as Bruce and other apologists would like us to believe that it is.
We can't even be sure that Bar-Serapion was referring to Jesus. He didn't identify the "wise king" by name, as he did in the case of both Socrates and Pythagoras, so one merely speculates when he says that this is a first-century secular reference to Jesus. How does one make that determination? Messianic pretenders in Judea were a dime a dozen during the era of foreign domination. Josephus referred to some of them, and even the New Testament mentioned two of them in Gamaliel's speech to the Jewish council ( Acts 5:35-36). In Bandits, Prophets, and Messiahs: Popular Movements at the Time of Jesus (Harper & Row, 1985), authors Richard Horsley and John Hanson tell of several Messianic prophets of this period besides Theudas and Judas of Galilee, whom Gamaliel mentioned in his speech. Some of these Messiahs were even named Jesus, and most of them came to ignominious ends at the hands ofeither the Romans or their own countrymen. How, then, do Bruce and other apologists who cite Mara Bar-Serapion's reference to a "wise king" who was executed by the Jews know for a fact that this was an allusion to Jesus of Nazareth and not to some other Messianic prophet of those times?"

Once again, Jesus is not mentioned by name.  So far, Nipper you are batting 0 for 3. 

[Baruch]

And Bar-Sarapion is dead wrong about Socrates and Pythagoras.

[Mike Cl]

And Bar-Sarapion is dead wrong about Socrates and Pythagoras.

But at least he knew who they were.

[Baruch]

But at least he knew who they were.

Unless he knew them personally, and was a couch buddy with Socrates and Alcibiades ... then he didn't know them, Biblically ;-)

[leo]

This twit is a fucking moron. Can I get rid of this babbling idiot now?

Ban isn't necessary , people are having  fun with our current troll pet. Purgatory is better for this little asshole.

[LittleNipper]

Yeah.  He's going to do that about 2,000 years ago, in the lifetime of the apostles.

Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus is speaking of several things here. You need to read the entire chapter to say the least.
The Destruction of the Temple Foretold

1 Jesus departed from the temple and was leaving when His disciples came to show Him the temple buildings.  2 Jesus answered them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

Troubles and Persecutions

3 As He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered them, “Take heed that no one deceives you.  5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.  6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled. For all these things must happen, but the end is not yet.  7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines, epidemics, and earthquakes in various places.  8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. And you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.  10 Then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.  11 And many false prophets will rise and will deceive many.  12 Because iniquity will abound, the love of many will grow cold.  13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.  14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation

15 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),  16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.  17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.  18 Let him who is in the field not return to take his clothes.  19 Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse in those days!  20 Pray that your escape will not be in the winter or on the Sabbath.  21 For then will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

22 “Unless those days were shortened, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.  23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it.  24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.  25 Listen, I have told you beforehand.

26 “So, if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert,’ do not go there; or, ‘Look, He is in the private chambers,’ do not believe it.  27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.  28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days,


‘the sun will be darkened,
    the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
    and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The Lesson of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and grows leaves, you know that summer is near.  33 So also, when you shall see all these things, you know that it is near, even at the doors.  34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.  35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

The Unknown Day and Hour

36 “Concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.  37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.  38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark,  39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.  40 Two will be in the field; one will be taken, and the other left.  41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and the other left.

42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord will come.  43 But know this, that if the owner of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not have let his house be broken into.  44 Therefore you also must be ready, for in an hour when you least expect, the Son of Man is coming.

The Faithful or the Unfaithful Servant

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master has made ruler over his household to give them food at the appointed time?  46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.  47 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.  48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master delays his coming,’  49 and begins to strike his fellow servants and eat and drink with the drunkards,  50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not look for him and in an hour he is not aware of  51 and will cut him in pieces and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[widdershins]

Blah, blah, blah, half the damned Bible

So, the way you explain to me why Jesus didn't say what he said you don't explain it and just quote a chapter with the last 2/5 bolded?

That story explains what is commonly called among fundamentalists "the rapture", though the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible.  Many of the things, even in just the bolded part, are often quoted when describing the "end times".  "No man will know the day or the hour" is what your minister says when he catches you doing something which might keep you out of Heaven to remind you that Jesus will be back any second now.  "Heaven and Earth will pass away" commonly describes the destruction of the world in the end times.  There is the mention of angels blowing trumpets, as described in Revelations concerning the end.  "One will be taken, and the other left" is the exact description of the rapture and the plot of the movie, Left Behind, which describes the rapture.  And he specifically mentions "the days of Noah", drawing a comparison between what he's talking about and the last time the world was destroyed.  And before he says ANY of those things, he says, "...this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

The rapture either came 2,000 years ago or it simply isn't coming, and it didn't come 2,000 years ago.  Frankly I'm rather disappointed that you didn't attempt to at least redefine the word "generation" like most apologists do to mean "Some vague, unspecified amount of time encompassing an equally vague and undefined 'age' which began sometime before Jesus used the word now translated into 'generation' in 24th chapter of the book of Matthew and will never, ever end until he comes back, no matter how many times we have to redefine what this vague 'age' is so that we can continue claiming it hasn't ended yet."

[ApostateLois]

Moses wrote the first books. Moses wrote what God wished Moses to write.

Actually, no, Moses did not write those books. Scholars have identified several different writing styles, indicating at least four different writers and one person who compiled their contributions into a single book. The fact that some of the stories repeat themselves (such as two different versions of the creation story), and that Moses' death is described, is a clue that a single person was NOT responsible for the Pentateuch. Look up the Documentary Hypothesis. It is really quite extraordinary, and I cannot fathom how anyone can imagine God working in such a haphazard manner.

But the fact remains that Romans, Greeks and Jews apparently wrote concerning Jesus and the Christians.

If I talk about the angel Moroni as he relates to the Mormons, does that make the angel real and Mormonism right? If I talk about the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the church of Pastafarianism, does that mean that religion is based on reality? He will touch you with His Noodly Appendage if only you will let Him!

This twit is a fucking moron. Can I get rid of this babbling idiot now?

He's not spamming or trolling or being nasty. If we want debate around here, we'll have to let some of the Christians stay. Otherwise, we'll just be a bunch of atheists agreeing that we don't believe in God. And if you want them to play nice, maybe retraining from calling them names is a good idea. (Not that there haven't been some who deserved it, but I don't think this guy does...yet.)

[Randy Carson]

The story of the Christian Bible is long, convoluted, and very interesting.  I am always amazed at how fundamental christians gloss over this quite obvious fact.  They truly don't want to know any of the facts of their so called scripture.  Here is just a very very brief snippet of some of that history. 

The King James Bible is considered by many today to be the 'original' Bible and therefore 'genuine' and all later revisions simply counterfeits forged by 'higher critics'. Others think the King James Bible is 'authentic' and 'authorized' and presents the original words of the authors as translated into English from the 'original' Greek texts. However, as Tony points out, the 'original' Greek text was not written until around the mid fourth century and was a revised edition of writings compiled decades earlier in Aramaic and Hebrew. Those earlier documents no longer exist and the Bibles we have today are five linguistic removes from the first bibles written. What was written in the 'original originals' is quite unknown. It is important to remember that the words 'authorized' and 'original', as applied to the Bible do not mean 'genuine', 'authentic' or 'true'.

The autographs or even scraps of the autographs, do not exist.  And those parts of the early writings we do possess represent copies of copies.  What these blind adherents of their christian leaders fail to accept is that the bible did not just plop down one day from god's hands to the Earth.

The KJV was just one attempt to translate the original the Bible into the language that people spoke in their native countries.

Interesting, the KJV was based upon just seven manuscripts and the oldest of these was from the eleventh century. Thanks to archaeological discoveries, today's translations are based upon more than 5,000 manuscripts with some dating back to the second century. IOW, with the passage of time, we are not getting farther away from the originals, we are getting closer to knowing precisely what the original autographs contained.

Finally, with the advent of computers, scholars are able to compare these manuscripts, identify the variants and determine which version most likely represents the original text. From this, scholars have determined that while a large number of variants do exist (many of them being simple spelling errors), none of them casts doubt upon a single Christian doctrine.

In sum, today, we can be confident that we have a reliable, accurate reconstruction of the original, inspired text.

[reasonist]

He's not spamming or trolling or being nasty. If we want debate around here, we'll have to let some of the Christians stay. Otherwise, we'll just be a bunch of atheists agreeing that we don't believe in God. And if you want them to play nice, maybe retraining from calling them names is a good idea. (Not that there haven't been some who deserved it, but I don't think this guy does...yet.)

Agreed, but this isn't a debate here.

"To debate is defined as to argue about the opposing sides of a subject or to discuss the merits of different arguments and points of view."
Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/debate#Bu4R8IehgeoSiRTU.99

If one side posits a certain point of view, the other side tries to counter that with credible information. The endlessly repeated notion that there are factual "eyewitnesses" from 2,000 years ago is not credible information. If you add the claim of repeated suspension of the laws of nature, even less so. The constant claim of "facts' where there aren't any, is a feeble attempt to make it so. Repeating a weak argument doesn't make it any stronger.
This "christian" is trying to put lipstick on a swine and avoids any and all inconvenient points. That's not a debate. That's a one sided indoctrination attempt.

I remember distinctively that Randy Carson was welcomed by many and respected by all when he started posting here. In return, he replied with condescension and ridicule. Sorry, no other cheek here. An eye for an eye.

[Unbeliever]

The Old Testament would not contain any history of Jesus the Christ. But then you likely only know about the Bible from what others tell you.

And you've read the entire Bible, have you?