Conclusive proof that Jesus was NOT divine

[reasonist]

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew, referring to the Apocrypha:

"I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics."

This proves conclusively that a) the NT is NOT divinely inspired and that b) Jesus was NOT the divine son of god. Numerous facts show us that this is true beyond any doubt.

Fact: We KNOW the author of the statement. Unlike the bible, we have proof of the existence of      the author as a historical figure. He was the 3rd President of America and author of the Declaration of independence.

Fact: We know his exact birthday and day of death. Unlike Jesus, we have lots of eyewitnesses that wrote about Jefferson when he was alive.

Fact: Jefferson tells us that the council of ecclesiastics are in fact PSEUDO-evangelists. The dictionary tells us that 'pseudo' means bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock. Therefore the people who decided what is the word of god and what is not, are not only mortal primates but also phony and therefore not to be authentic.

Fact: Jefferson states in his letter that the authors of the bible pretend to inspiration. The dictionary tells us that the word 'pretend' means: 'speak and act as to make it appear that something is the case, when in fact it is not. Used in a game of deception'. This proves conclusively that the bible is NOT inspired by any deity.

Fact: A proven historical figure, a President of the US, tells us that the bible is not the inspired word of god and that Jesus is neither the son of god nor divine.

A simple comparison of credibility between bronze age goat herders with stupid claims of miracles and a historical figure of brilliance and knowledge without any supernatural claims. These facts have passed the 'Carson litmus test' and have been found conclusive and reliable!!

[widdershins]

Ah, but you forget, as our good friend Randy teaches us, if it's written in the Bible it is FACT by default because you can't prove it's not.  And the Bible contains EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS of the death and erection of Jesus, also because you can't prove it doesn't because, though all the evidence certainly suggests the earliest books were written well after the supposed death of Jesus, the evidence doesn't PROVE this.  And, as we all know, one person who agrees with Randy has more authority on these matters than many millions who do not.  These are FACTS!  You cannot deny them.  No, they're not true and no, I can't prove them, but they are FACTS nonetheless because I have capitalized the word "FACT".  You only bolded it.  You should have done your homework!

[21CIconoclast]

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew, referring to the Apocrypha:

"I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics."

This proves conclusively that a) the NT is NOT divinely inspired and that b) Jesus was NOT the divine son of god. Numerous facts show us that this is true beyond any doubt.

Fact: We KNOW the author of the statement. Unlike the bible, we have proof of the existence of      the author as a historical figure. He was the 3rd President of America and author of the Declaration of independence.

Fact: We know his exact birthday and day of death. Unlike Jesus, we have lots of eyewitnesses that wrote about Jefferson when he was alive.

Fact: Jefferson tells us that the council of ecclesiastics are in fact PSEUDO-evangelists. The dictionary tells us that 'pseudo' means bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock. Therefore the people who decided what is the word of god and what is not, are not only mortal primates but also phony and therefore not to be authentic.

Fact: Jefferson states in his letter that the authors of the bible pretend to inspiration. The dictionary tells us that the word 'pretend' means: 'speak and act as to make it appear that something is the case, when in fact it is not. Used in a game of deception'. This proves conclusively that the bible is NOT inspired by any deity.

Fact: A proven historical figure, a President of the US, tells us that the bible is not the inspired word of god and that Jesus is neither the son of god nor divine.

A simple comparison of credibility between bronze age goat herders with stupid claims of miracles and a historical figure of brilliance and knowledge without any supernatural claims. These facts have passed the 'Carson litmus test' and have been found conclusive and reliable!!

reasonist,

Lest you forget, when discussing Jesus as god incarnate with the divisions of the Trinitarian faith, especially the Catholics, one has to remind them that if Jesus is god, then this biblical character is held culpable for all of the horrific and brutal killings within the scriptures when he got mad and took out revenge upon his creation!  Wait, I forgot that Jesus is all loving and forgiving, my bad.

Do you ever hear the Catholic Church reminding their flock that Jesus, as god, KILLED and ABORTED millions of his creation in the Great Flood, plagues, pestilence, etc.?  NOT!

[reasonist]

reasonist,

Lest you forget, when discussing Jesus as god incarnate with the divisions of the Trinitarian faith, especially the Catholics, one has to remind them that if Jesus is god, then this biblical character is held culpable for all of the horrific and brutal killings within the scriptures when he got mad and took out revenge upon his creation!  Wait, I forgot that Jesus is all loving and forgiving, my bad.

Do you ever hear the Catholic Church reminding their flock that Jesus, as god, KILLED and ABORTED millions of his creation in the Great Flood, plagues, pestilence, etc.?  NOT!

That is always a dilemma for the apologists. How do you reconcile omni- benevolence with mass murder?
The frightening part is that the flock knows about these atrocities and still worship and submit to this monster of the imagination. Impossible for a rational mind and yet easy for so many. Hitch is right, our frontal lobes are too small and our adrenaline glands too big. Some design...

[Baruch]

That is always a dilemma for the apologists. How do you reconcile omni- benevolence with mass murder?
The frightening part is that the flock knows about these atrocities and still worship and submit to this monster of the imagination. Impossible for a rational mind and yet easy for so many. Hitch is right, our frontal lobes are too small and our adrenaline glands too big. Some design...

The Krell for Forbidden Planet.

[Unbeliever]

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew, referring to the Apocrypha:

"I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics."

This proves conclusively that a) the NT is NOT divinely inspired and that b) Jesus was NOT the divine son of god. Numerous facts show us that this is true beyond any doubt.

Fact: We KNOW the author of the statement. Unlike the bible, we have proof of the existence of      the author as a historical figure. He was the 3rd President of America and author of the Declaration of independence.

Fact: We know his exact birthday and day of death. Unlike Jesus, we have lots of eyewitnesses that wrote about Jefferson when he was alive.

Fact: Jefferson tells us that the council of ecclesiastics are in fact PSEUDO-evangelists. The dictionary tells us that 'pseudo' means bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock. Therefore the people who decided what is the word of god and what is not, are not only mortal primates but also phony and therefore not to be authentic.

Fact: Jefferson states in his letter that the authors of the bible pretend to inspiration. The dictionary tells us that the word 'pretend' means: 'speak and act as to make it appear that something is the case, when in fact it is not. Used in a game of deception'. This proves conclusively that the bible is NOT inspired by any deity.

Fact: A proven historical figure, a President of the US, tells us that the bible is not the inspired word of god and that Jesus is neither the son of god nor divine.

A simple comparison of credibility between bronze age goat herders with stupid claims of miracles and a historical figure of brilliance and knowledge without any supernatural claims. These facts have passed the 'Carson litmus test' and have been found conclusive and reliable!!

[drunkenshoe]

All the fairy tales aside, the problem is not even the questions of 'Was Jesus Divine' or even 'Has Jesus really existed as a person?' There is no need for one man for any of this to occur. Having said that probably there have been a  few dozen real life men that have tried to lead revolutions of some sort in the environment of those days in Ancient Rome. The 'nobles' controlling all the land, slaves doing all the work and citizens never getting paid enough to survive. Constant immigrations to the cities...etc. And there are soldiers of course. Soldiers are crucial.

Highly likely there were other rumoured stories that grew up to a point but never manage to become myths in the end and faded away in course of hundreds of years. And when one stuck around -the tipping point- and spread enough to become dangerous enough to threaten the Empire they have felt the need to make it official and standardise it for control. Now, when you are 'making' an epic story for people you take motifs and characters people already are familiar with in collective memory.

The options in myth making is pretty few anyway. Of course there will be a man with super powers. What else was there going to be? A squirrel? An ordinary man? What good is that? You need a super hero. And you need to make that man perform extraordinary deeds, make him say things that contrast the system they live in, so people would follow him. None of it has to be original, infact it must not be original, it must be very simple so people would follow it. What is that? 'This man was killed and he came back.' A hero that defied the very fear why humans invented religions and god in the first place. Fear of Death.

How did Christianity spread, what Constantine did, what what was done in Nicea councils and others with creeds is politics catching up. They are not a different political decision than what Ramses II has done to keep the order and the balance of the masses, more than thousand years before Jesus. In a different way, but for the same goals.

But in real life practice, it comes down to the soldiers. If a threatening amount of soldiers didn't convert to Christianity -remember that the only biggest power is trained, armed men that day- Christian myth could have died out easily. Because it wouldn't have even become the official religion of the Roman Empire. And even that took a very long time.

You know what, looking from the point of view of domestic politics of the Empire, the whole thing is actually brilliant.  

[Baruch]

It was essential that the Christians compromise on the one thing they couldn't compromise on ... kind of like the guy at the end of "1984".  Gotta make them love Big Brother Constantine.  Pacifism would be fatal to the Roman legions and the Roman state.  Christian legionaries before Constantine, failed to worship the emperor as a living god, and espoused pacifism.  So no surprise they were executed quickly.  The emperor was downgraded a little from "god" to "vicar of Christ" (it wasn't the Pope).  So that key point had to go.  There is no difference between the Jesus of Constantine and Sol Invictus ... both are war gods ... as is the Jewish and Muslim gods.  I might have doubts about the value of Gentile Christianity from 135 - 325 CE ... but I can't ignore the total corruption after 325 CE.  Augustine of Hippo being one late exception ... he poo pooed the Roman state, just before Hippo was surrounded by the Vandal hordes.  Edward Gibbon was right about them.  The Buddhist core of the NT had to be neutralized.

[Randy Carson]

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew, referring to the Apocrypha:

"I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics."

This proves conclusively that a) the NT is NOT divinely inspired and that b) Jesus was NOT the divine son of god. Numerous facts show us that this is true beyond any doubt.

Fact: We KNOW the author of the statement. Unlike the bible, we have proof of the existence of      the author as a historical figure. He was the 3rd President of America and author of the Declaration of independence.

Fact: We know his exact birthday and day of death. Unlike Jesus, we have lots of eyewitnesses that wrote about Jefferson when he was alive.

Fact: Jefferson tells us that the council of ecclesiastics are in fact PSEUDO-evangelists. The dictionary tells us that 'pseudo' means bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock. Therefore the people who decided what is the word of god and what is not, are not only mortal primates but also phony and therefore not to be authentic.

Fact: Jefferson states in his letter that the authors of the bible pretend to inspiration. The dictionary tells us that the word 'pretend' means: 'speak and act as to make it appear that something is the case, when in fact it is not. Used in a game of deception'. This proves conclusively that the bible is NOT inspired by any deity.

Fact: A proven historical figure, a President of the US, tells us that the bible is not the inspired word of god and that Jesus is neither the son of god nor divine.

A simple comparison of credibility between bronze age goat herders with stupid claims of miracles and a historical figure of brilliance and knowledge without any supernatural claims. These facts have passed the 'Carson litmus test' and have been found conclusive and reliable!!

FACT: Thomas Jefferson is not recognized as a NT scholar or an authority on the material he commented upon in this passage. He is offering his personal opinion, and the only reason this is even noted is because of his celebrity status. This is the equivalent of someone like Beyonce testifying before congress on climate change without having any genuine scientific credentials whatsoever.

[reasonist]

Unbeliever, I just used the 'Carson method'. This way I can prove anything I want.   
I just came across god's speech on the grassy knoll:

Here is an excerpt of god's sermon on the grassy knoll:
" Yes, I created the heavens and the Earth. And I created you in my image. I gave you dominion over flora and fauna, except micro organisms that create suffering and death to keep you submissive.
I covered most of the Earth with water but gave you lungs to breathe air. I gave other mammals lungs, like whales and dolphins, but made them live in water to make it interesting.
I want you to multiply but made the mechanism repulsive. That's why I placed your reproductive organs so close to your sphincter.
I gave you independent thought but want you to forego this gift and instead adore me and grovel before me; I need that.   
I made cave animals blind, like salamanders and bats, but gave them eyes anyways, just in case.
I created you from dust and gave you an appendix and tail bone for the fun of it.
I have a plan but am willing to change it all the time if you ask me on your knees.
You can keep some of your brethren as slaves and the virgins from the spoils of wars for your entertainment, just don't go after your neighbor's oxen."

[Munch]

erection of Jesus

[Mike Cl]

FACT: Thomas Jefferson is not recognized as a NT scholar or an authority on the material he commented upon in this passage. He is offering his personal opinion, and the only reason this is even noted is because of his celebrity status. This is the equivalent of someone like Beyonce testifying before congress on climate change without having any genuine scientific credentials whatsoever.

Authority.  What a concept.  If Jesus is supposed to be a personal god, one who can watch over you (each and every one of us), then that god would be the authority.  Not any human--ever.  If Jesus were a personal god without exception, one who loves each and every one of us, that god would make sure that each human had a way to understand that this god was really there.  There would be no need for an authority.  So, the christian seeking out and labeling another human as an authority sort of put their whole concept to a lie. 

Most of the time when a christian labels somebody an authority, they simply agree with that person and want to say --"See, I told you that this is true, and (insert name) agrees with me!"  Look at the language of the bible.  It is replete with labels like king, lord, master---it uses the jargon of a kingdom, which is easy for the people then to relate to.  Christians love hierarchy.  Without it they and their religion would flounder.  They need that 'authority' to tell them how to think, how to believe and that faith is all that is needed.  They don't want to think--only be guided.  It is so much easier that way.  Authority seeker=willing slave.  And willful ignorance follows.

[reasonist]

Authority.  What a concept.  If Jesus is supposed to be a personal god, one who can watch over you (each and every one of us), then that god would be the authority.  Not any human--ever.  If Jesus were a personal god without exception, one who loves each and every one of us, that god would make sure that each human had a way to understand that this god was really there.  There would be no need for an authority.  So, the christian seeking out and labeling another human as an authority sort of put their whole concept to a lie. 

Most of the time when a christian labels somebody an authority, they simply agree with that person and want to say --"See, I told you that this is true, and (insert name) agrees with me!"  Look at the language of the bible.  It is replete with labels like king, lord, master---it uses the jargon of a kingdom, which is easy for the people then to relate to.  Christians love hierarchy.  Without it they and their religion would flounder.  They need that 'authority' to tell them how to think, how to believe and that faith is all that is needed.  They don't want to think--only be guided.  It is so much easier that way.  Authority seeker=willing slave.  And willful ignorance follows.

Yes, I always found the fact that the flock is so eager to give up individualism in order to enjoy serfdom and thought control, as a form of masochism. The concept of loving someone who we also fear is just that.
Marx described it as 'the opium of the people', Kuhn describes it as the 'cessation of self worth', Hitchens calls it 'wish thinking', I call it self deception of the emotionally needy. Either way, the result is always the same; the voluntary relinquishing of critical thought. Sam Harris says that faith is not a valid cognitive function. George Smith writes:" Insofar as faith is possible, it is irrational; insofar as faith is rational, it is impossible".

"What remains after the qualities essential to a rewarding life are surrendered? Nothing-except a man without reason, without passion, without self esteem. A man, in other words, that will find ANYTHING preferable to life on earth. Such a man may claim that christianity has given him hope of happiness in an afterlife, but all that christianity has really given him is an elaborate excuse, draped in the banner of morality, to continue his blind stumbling through life on earth. Human misery is a sad spectacle. But it is sadder still when disguised as moral righteousness."
G.H. Smith

[Randy Carson]

Authority.  What a concept.  If Jesus is supposed to be a personal god, one who can watch over you (each and every one of us), then that god would be the authority.  Not any human--ever.  If Jesus were a personal god without exception, one who loves each and every one of us, that god would make sure that each human had a way to understand that this god was really there.  There would be no need for an authority.  So, the christian seeking out and labeling another human as an authority sort of put their whole concept to a lie.

Most of the time when a christian labels somebody an authority, they simply agree with that person and want to say --"See, I told you that this is true, and (insert name) agrees with me!"  Look at the language of the bible.  It is replete with labels like king, lord, master---it uses the jargon of a kingdom, which is easy for the people then to relate to.  Christians love hierarchy.  Without it they and their religion would flounder.  They need that 'authority' to tell them how to think, how to believe and that faith is all that is needed.  They don't want to think--only be guided.  It is so much easier that way.  Authority seeker=willing slave.  And willful ignorance follows.

There is enough evidence for those who want to find it to be able to do so but not so much as to coerce those who do not.

[Mike Cl]

There is enough evidence for those who want to find it to be able to do so but not so much as to coerce those who do not.

And I say to you, good sir--bullshit.  All you say and the way you believe--bullshit!