Regressive Left

[mauricio]

Everything posted here in this thread is a marketing product, APA. From marketing a political side to marketing issues, issues of what to hate and what to support; what is happening. There are so many created, fake problems and so many people who are ready to buy them in dire need, opportunities are endless. It is the best self satisfying, self affirming set of products. It's an endless fire sale.

Its called people expressing their opinions freely. You will get from genious to trash. You seem to be rather paranoid and too cynic to the point of irrationally dismissive of speech just because people want to actually convince you, like duh. Thats the whole point. It's your (royal you) responsability to sort out the gold nuggets from the trash.

[drunkenshoe]

Hes right though. TJ has become more openminded than the general perception of him is. When he actually talks with honesty and without trolling like in that video. Also you talk about the educated people (lets ignore the race thing since many brown educated people are also helping) fighting in a productive way against this. That is exactly what is happening. The stand for freedom of speech done by organizations like FIRE and people like christina hoff sommers, dave rubin, alluhm bokari and maajid nawaz. They are doing something productive by defending the baseline of the culture that allows for the debate to occur. Between polarized oppositions of liberals and conservatives and other ideologies that have not yet demonstrated their claims to the point of justifying closure of certain topics of discussion the only truly ehtical neccesity is to sustain freedom of speech to keep a fair discussion going. Even though people are still fallible and will become tribalistic after enough months of arguing the same points against the same sides, still good ideas are flowing through.

OK. I am taking your word for it. Because that's pretty bad.

But preventing the polarisation will be difficult, because it seems like it has become the identity of these people, SJWs or MRAs alike. You know what, in the long run this mess could prove to be much better than people think. It will be like wandering wandering in the jungle...and finding the road back to civilisation.

About the 'regressive left' though, I don't know. Europe is not like the US. Left has been pretty much the state in there for a long time even with right parties, the law is left-it is the social state. Expecting the left to change and be something else...I don't get it. It doesn't end good for anyone.

[drunkenshoe]

Its called people expressing their opinions freely. You will get from genious to trash. You seem to be rather paranoid and too cynic to the point of irrationally dismissive of speech just because people want to actually convince you, like duh. Thats the whole point. It's your (royal you) responsability to sort out the gold nuggets from the trash.

I was just being obnoxious. Lighten up. I am not your enemy, I wish you could get this. I'm one of those feminists who gives a big damn about male isssues as your TJ says.

It is a set of marketed products though, marucio. I mean for SJWs and MRAs and their supporter groups. It works for people. It's functional for individuals in a very different various levels.

[mauricio]

I was just being obnoxious. Lighten up. I am not your enemy, I wish you could get this. I'm one of those feminists who gives a big damn about male isssues as your TJ says.

It is a set of marketed products though, marucio. I mean for SJWs and MRAs and their supporter groups. It works for people. It's functional for individuals in a very different various levels.

You call them marketed products but why exactly? Is it because they all are trying to convince you to see it from their point of view by using rhetoric and nice video editing? Thats why i call you cynic because many of those people actually believe their stuff, they are not all outright conmans even though some surely are. And also having egoistical desires while spreading your ideas is perfectly natural and not really unethical as long as you are not being dishonest and trying to con people. You can always just be mistaken or ignorant. We are all in this together. We study the world we come to conclusions and we try to spread them to find value in the synthesis of clashing ideologies. While also being motivated by supposedly more vain and selfish desires like the thrill of the debate or money. Now from my point of view currently there are people who try to limit the boundaries of the playground by limiting speech. They are breaking the rules of the game. They are arrogantly claiming a matter to be settled and labeling the opposition with pejoratives rather that justifying their claims that the matter is indeed settled. Some of this "marketed products" have noticed this and are speaking out against it. And on that point they have my complete support even if i remain unconvinced by many of their other positions.

[drunkenshoe]

You call them marketed products but why exactly? Is it because they all are trying to convince you to see it from their point of view by using rhetoric and nice video editing? Thats why i call you cynic because many of those people actually believe their stuff, they are not all outright conmans even though some surely are. And also having egoistical desires while spreading your ideas is perfectly natural and not really unethical as long as you are not being dishonest and trying to con people. You can always just be mistaken or ignorant. We are all in this together. We study the world we come to conclusions and we try to spread them to find value in the synthesis of clashing ideologies. While also being motivated by supposedly more vain and selfish desires like the thrill of the debate or money. Now from my point of view currently there are people who try to limit the boundaries of the playground by limiting speech. They are breaking the rules of the game. They are arrogantly claiming a matter to be settled and labeling the opposition with pejoratives rather that justifying their claims that the matter is indeed settled. Some of this "marketed products" have noticed this and are speaking out against it. And on that point they have my complete support even if i remain unconvinced by many of their other positions.

There are so many things why I think this is a self born product. But my head is spinning and I need to take some time.

[josephpalazzo]

It's a power trip, disguised in different clothes.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Everything posted here in this thread is a marketing product, APA. From marketing a political side to marketing issues, issues of what to hate and what to support; what is happening. There are so many created, fake problems and so many people who are ready to buy them in dire need, opportunities are endless. It is the best self satisfying, self affirming set of products. It's an endless fire sale.

They finally invented a set of products that doesn't need production, doesn't end with consumption that they can make people sell it to themselves over and over again with self added accessories and sell it to themselves all over again. An existence with designed problems; a defined gender; certain personal traits and issues and the political solution is free if you buy the whole set.  I bow to American capitalism.

What do you say to marketing a line of drunken shoes and it'll work because we'll convince people that if they don't have them they're racist, homophobes who hate god and Hitler along with apple pie and baseball.
We'll convince them to say OH MY GOD! I DON'T HATE HITLER and I'm not a homophobe and some of my best friends are apple pies!
We just need a good pitchman.. lol

[Cocoa Beware]

Here is another interesting video that tackles the issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhVaw3mYbs

(From the video)

With women it is quite astounding to witness the betrayal of the regressive left, with celebrities buying Tee shirts saying "This is what a feminist looks like" and Emma Watson's HeforShe initiative.

There is a movement in the West to fight for equality in all aspects of life. The men proudly and rightly declare their support for women and the women stop shaving their armpits as a sign of victory over the misogynist patriarchy.

But... bring up the notion of the way women are treated in the vast majority of the Muslim world, and their silence is deafening. "Universal moral values" become "Cultural relativism"

"Who are we to say their culture is wrong and our's is right?" (they say) "We treat women as sex objects, we are no better"

"What about all the women who want to wear a burqa? Who are we to tell them that they shouldn't? That's just eurocentric arrogance"

These are some of the objections we hear when we question the concept of covering up half the world's population as being a benign idea.

The regressive left believe in separate laws for separate people.

The goalposts have never moved around so quickly with these guys.

Like Sargon said, "Doublethink"

[hrdlr110]

I listen to a lot of sargons videos and follow him, and share his views. As someone who gets a pit in his stomach every time I read some third wave feminist agenda or SJW speech that seems to contradict itself. I often seen a lot of the sarkeesian followers raving every time a female character with big boobs appears in a game, but rather then having the creative stance on creating a game they would find 'inoffensive', they just want everyone to think like them and have it removed.

And thats the biggest problem with regressive leftists, they are so far on the opposite end of the scale of what they consider to be moral, they are as bad as those on the opposite extremist right.

Travel far enough to the left you risk running into those that have traveled too far to the right. The earth is not flat!

[drunkenshoe]

You call them marketed products but why exactly? Is it because they all are trying to convince you to see it from their point of view by using rhetoric and nice video editing?

Neither SJWs, nor MRAs can convince me with their current dynamic; their methods and vision of gender issues. It is not my 'belief' that patriarchal system or culture is a conspiracy against women or any other gender that doesn't fit the standard which is white hetereosexual male. When I use the word 'patriarchy' I mean a man shaped world and I see most women as much patriarchal -actually at certain issues even more- as those men they 'blame' with patriarchal behaviour. I also understand perfectly how human culture came to be this way.

[I haven't been oppressed by patriarchy. On the contrary, it worked to my benefit. How did that happen? I was born in a conservative and highly patriarchal culture, but I was raised by a man who didn't enforce those tradition and simply went with 'This is a patriarchy, I'm a man and the head of my family and what I say goes' WHILE enforcing the exact opposite of those traditional rules. Who is going to say what to him or me? This is a fucking patriarchy and what the patriarch says goes. I didn't even see what has been going on with people, esp. with women and this thing called  patriarchy since I reached 30s, when I realised how patriarchal I am myself when blaming all those women AND men for acting in certain ways; making those choices, because I had no idea that actually there are no other opportunities available to them. Probably it is hard for you to imagine this in a muslim country, but yes. Things have started to change in the last 6-7 years after another 6-7 years the religious party came in power.

By the way, don't picture my father like an American liberal type who raised her daughters like 'princesses', spoiling them rotten or some sort of an activist. He is an old school, grumpy old man, traditional father when he is angry about a specific religion, he pretty much sounds like pr126, strom and joseph. He lives by the sea with cats, fishing all day and building or fixing something, reading about science, playing his guitar. Classic engineer minded male; specific vision of the world. Inflexible. There is either a natural scientific vision or none. He doesn't take anyone seriously as a human being, only mom. He can be quite trying and exhausting.

So my ideas and opinions of the general patriarchal culture developed in a very different way in a long time. I didn't pick them up by watching a SJW videos or in my 20s reading feminist books or gender studies.]

Thats why i call you cynic because many of those people actually believe their stuff, they are not all outright conmans even though some surely are. And also having egoistical desires while spreading your ideas is perfectly natural and not really unethical as long as you are not being dishonest and trying to con people. You can always just be mistaken or ignorant. We are all in this together. We study the world we come to conclusions and we try to spread them to find value in the synthesis of clashing ideologies. While also being motivated by supposedly more vain and selfish desires like the thrill of the debate or money. Now from my point of view currently there are people who try to limit the boundaries of the playground by limiting speech. They are breaking the rules of the game. They are arrogantly claiming a matter to be settled and labeling the opposition with pejoratives rather that justifying their claims that the matter is indeed settled. Some of this "marketed products" have noticed this and are speaking out against it. And on that point they have my complete support even if i remain unconvinced by many of their other positions.

Of course I am cynical, because they are presenting a show. Having egostistical desire on an issue that concerns-related to individualism; personal experiences; social organic life with its negative or positive aspects reduce everything they do to a stand up SHOW, esp. when it is also related to money.

The very fact that they believe in their stuff, doesn't change that fact that this is a show of dictating self values and self morals and giving designed knee jerk reaction. What is that show?

1.Selling opinions and ideas of various victimhoods

2.Marketing strategy; eliciting emotional response and provocation

a)invoking anger, despise and hatred
b)gross generalisations, hyperbolic language, exaggerated notions
c)everything is one sided and everything made personal; me, me, me,-I, I, I! 
d)things are screwed up, because men are...blah blah
e)things are screwed up, because women are...blah blah
f)get loud and louder
g)stirring up shit is a perfect way to call it -you can read this in MRAs and SJWs sites directly. This is the direct phrase they use; 'we need to stir shit up, we are not getting enough hatred' -from Man's voice forum. They are sharing hate e-mails and there is a competititon going on. People believe themselves to be a failure if they don't get any.
e)Both groups are using the specific derog terms just to get that provocation from each other and doing it admittedly so

3.get organised and undermine the other side by every means possible; threat, plotting, framing...etc. SJWs have the best exp here. MRAs need to learn a lot. Mainstream still listens SJWs more. The hostile 'masculine' threats disturb most people.

4.prisoning people into a tunnel vision; in an isolated culture like American culture where people are already under hevay fire of propaganda this works on steroids. As this is a product selling an existence it is designed to tie everything up in one mess. At some point supporters of the both groups have started to interpret the whole world in terms of SJWs and MRAs. Black and white vision; right and wrong. Extremism.

5. Confirmation bias full throttle. Everything is in black and white.

This is why Armoured Sceptic is a far more valuable and important vlogger and an anti-SJW than vloggers like Thunderf00t or Amazing Atheist. They asked AS what he thought on Gamer Gate and I saw myself several comments goading him to make a video on it. The expectation was that as a white het male with a voice he'd be attacking feminists etc.

He said what he thought about GG, how exaggerated the reactions were...ect and he said that "I am subscribed to feminist ideas as much as anti-feminist ones because confirmation bias is dangerous and prevents people from rational-reasonable thought".  That's called intellectual honesty and integrity. If he made a antoginising video attacking feminists or SJWs he would get MORE clicks than AA and Thunderf00t combined ESP now after that piece of shit Jenny McDermott did to him -also with Thunderf00t too, but sorry I don't have sympathy for him he enjoys and profits from this-  I would even support AS, but as far as I know he still DOESN'T subscribe to this bullshit movement(s) and the method of getting clicks. For that I have huge respect for that young man. He is not an MRA. Armoured Sceptic makes fun of MRAs along with SJWs.

What do the vloggers like Thunderf00t and AA do? They make sensational videos about feminist and SJWs in different styles but very much the same. Thunderf00t could have chastised Wattson and point out her hostility, but what did he do, he made a video full of contempt and despise and he knew he would get hundreds of thousands clicks, esp. Dawkins declared Wattson a legitimate target. He chose a suitable target to promote himself. The irony is the fact that Wattson acted like a total ass unfortuntelay doesn't change the fact that how women are treated when they get loud about their opinions. "You are a fucking cunt." This is exactly what I got here years ago when I first posted in a rape thread. Word for word.

So what is the contribution of vloggers like Thunderf00t and AA? Creating bullshit, balloon scandals and making people like Anita Sarkeesian FAMOUS, making clicks and money from it. Thanks to Thunderf00t there are countless of people out there who has no idea of the gaming world or gaming but know who Anita Sarkeesian is. Tomorrow when somebody actually goes far to do something to Sarkeesian, they will seal her position. Bravo. Well done. And this will happen, you'll see. Let's hope not.

This self aggarandising vlogger culture is actually happening in the US intensely, because it is an extension of the old stand up culture; a bunch of male characters that influenced American culture via TV, in lack of a real political opposition against republican/democrat rat race FOR DECADES before the internet age. And their movement was actually very refreshing and progressive for its time, because for the first time they broke a political correctness, a strelised culture in media mediums shown free from social issues reflected in the screen during the silenced oppressed of 50s and the 60s these men broke that and build the American freedom of speech as we know today.

The crucial thing with the internet age is the delivery of information is instantenous AND everyone has a voice. This pop culture of SJWs and MRAs provides a passive entertainment that trick people into thinking that they are actually active about something; self actualsiation; gives them a cause; a side, a team to support; it's selling a form of existence. From gender issues to its political side. Young American males are complaining about a 'regressive liberal left' in a country left doesn't exist; where there is only two different aspects of far right. They are angry about a vicitimhood of a white het male they have never experienced in their enitre life. And they rely on the other side, to SJWs because without them there wouldn't be any MRAs. I wrote something on this:  http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=9567.msg1118487#msg1118487 Take SJWs away, nothing is left in the identity of people like AA or other vloggers.

It's a product first telling you that you have this identity; who you are, what you are and why you are 'oppressed', what you should get angry about AND then selling you self affirmation, self confirmation and the self satisfaction of that identity that you belong. This is the very thing that poisons any fertile ground to interact and solve about the real issues on human interaction in real life. BECAUSE THERE IS NO REAL LIFE AND INTERACTION. Gender is a binary construct; gender issues is are the one massive, organic tangled web people live amnd weave through. It doesn't happen to you in front of a computer. You cannot get a personal scalpel and cut it is into pieces of male and female or gay and transgender AND then present issues from those polar perspective...those polars don't exist. It's created by this set of products, because you can't sell it otherwise.

How is it that it is not a product?

Now, it is put in a certain political view -which is the only one that can actually accommodate it- and they are all condemned under the same roof by a certain side which is actually condemned because of other factors like terrorism; islamic terrorism...etc.

The irony here is, like it is demonstrated in this forum and thread -and many other places- the people who register and buy to this set of ideas are white het males, because it is the standard that has been beaten up by all various SJWs groups. This is a white male dominated forum and they do not even listen any other ideas or opinions that doesn't serve themselves, they are hostile to any -like you do to me and Mermaid without even understanding where we are coming from treating us like a couple of SJWs; because that's your tunnel vision- different opinions or female perspective, but complain and attack female dominated sites in despise because how hostile they are.

The good part and effect of this product in long term is that it will have its peak and hopefully go down and normalise into a communication one day. Because it WON'T solve anything. I actually believe this can have good results in long term in a different way. But currently...nah. They have a LOOONG way to go.

[drunkenshoe]

Garden of strawmen and self conflicting propaganda.

With women it is quite astounding to witness the betrayal of the regressive left, with celebrities buying Tee shirts saying "This is what a feminist looks like" and Emma Watson's HeforShe initiative.

The only astounding thing is that how a woman defining herself as feminist gets marketed as a 'betrayal' of a political idealogy which is actually the only one that can/does accommodate her position.

The men proudly and rightly declare their support for women and the women stop shaving their armpits as a sign of victory over the misogynist patriarchy.

The reason women give these kind of reactions is very simple and comes from daily-real life. Their physical appearance plays the first role in their social identity. They are almost defacto expected to fit in certain physical traits. Guess what? They don't like it.

But... bring up the notion of the way women are treated in the vast majority of the Muslim world,

The issue of how women are treated in the vast majority of the Muslim World has been transformed into a POLITICAL ISSUE in the Westen World to spport and justify the post 9/11 war-invasion policies for the Westerner sitting in his/her home watching/reading about the world.

Secondly, to maintain the Western self conviction of  'See, we are much 'better, we are entitled to impose our values and culture'.

and their silence is deafening. "Universal moral values" become "Cultural relativism"

Do you people realise how does that statement conflict with the whole 'regressive left' whining? The LEFT is the only side that doesn't act like there is a 'Universal moral values' -which is the reality- and defends that trying to impose one culture's values onto another is therefore wrong.

Also whoever wrote that^ obviously has no idea what is Cultural Relativism or just simply trying to bend it.

Cultural relativism is the principle that an individual person's beliefs and activities should be understood by others in terms of that individual's own culture. Not yours. This is actually what gave birth to the Anthropological principle that there is no 'good' or 'bad' culture, but just human culture.

This is what left supports. This is the very idea says 'fuck you' to 'universal moral values' AS MOST atheists in this forum take it as a correct definition of reality.   So make up your mind.

"Who are we to say their culture is wrong and our's is right?" (they say) "We treat women as sex objects, we are no better"

They are right. Who are you to tell anyone that their culture is 'wrong' or 'right' and impose your own culture?  The only concern of the Western policy -be it EU or USA- is to create more land under their political and economical influence, not providing people 'freedom' or 'democracy'.

For anyone who wants to buy the notion that any Western policy have an agenda of bringing 'civlisation' ot the Muslim World, it comes from Uncle Carlin. "That's bullshit and it's bad for ya".

"What about all the women who want to wear a burqa? Who are we to tell them that they shouldn't? That's just eurocentric arrogance"

It's worse than Eurocentric arrogance. It's dictating what people should do to have the right culture.  I have lived with muslim women all my life. If you people bothered to interact with these women it would shock you to find out that the very big majority of them are  very content and actually happy with covering themselves.

But nobody bothers to listen to those women, because they are women, right. They are the ultimate victim anyway, who cares what they want, how they are comfortable as long as it is offensive to some people.

STOP telling women what to wear and how to act like, just because you find it offensive and it doesn't fit in your understanding of the 'right culture' or stop denying that we all are living in a man shaped world.   

These are some of the objections we hear when we question the concept of covering up half the world's population as being a benign idea.

This very statement is a declaration of "We don't know anything about the vast diversity of Islamic culture(s), but as long as we are concerned, a women or a men dressing up differently than we do is baaaad".

The regressive left believe in separate laws for separate people.

Well, when you wholeheartedly believe that your culture is the only 'right' culture in the world, this is not a surprising conclsuion to reach.

And that should be 'rules', not 'laws'. Definition and function of law is are exactly the same in the Western world. If a certain Western culture is failing to enfroce them, that failure is the responsibility of the administration in that culture. It doesn't render the Western law system and its objectives ineffective or useless.

What is going on Europe is a result of sheer arrogance that has started looong ago and transformed into a war after 9/11. When migrants were welcomed to the land to to fill every position and role the White European didn't want; the bottom class, nobody bothered to assimilate and interact with their culture to 'assimilate' them when their population had the suitable numbers. As long as they were concerned, they were 'untouchable'.

They didn't care what was going outside their borders; genocide, wars-invaisons. It was just how the world was. Well, it wasn't. Living in a delusion; a fantasy that puts you in a giant mirror has concequences. 

The goalposts have never moved around so quickly with these guys.

The goalposts are exactly at the same spot. The game is the old game. Your tribune has changed. The Westerner identity has got shrunk and the perception of  the unthoucable Western civlisation shattered after 9/11. Terrorism was once a very rare thing in the West land and it happened far far away in the dark land of Mordor. Now ,it is in your backyard and you don't know when it is going to strike.

Well, treating the world like a 'backyard' finally turned that backyard into the real world. And Western people are reacting to this. Humanity has an ugly way of make everyone 'equal' at some point.

[Cocoa Beware]

The issue of how women are treated in the vast majority of the Muslim World has been transformed into a POLITICAL ISSUE in the Westen World to spport and justify the post 9/11 war-invasion policies for the Westerner sitting in his/her home watching/reading about the world.

Secondly, to maintain the Western self conviction of  'See, we are much 'better, we are entitled to impose our values and culture'.

I wouldnt agree with anyone who would justify an invasion on such grounds. Personally, I thought a huge mistake was being made on March 20, 2003. I've never supported any of it, then or since.

Trying to persuade people to adopt your culture at the same you are invading their country doesn't strike me as a sensible way to go about it anyways. Conquerers have always understood that the only surefire way to impose your own culture is to eradicate the existing one.

Do you people realise how does that statement conflict with the whole 'regressive left' whining? The LEFT is the only side that doesn't act like there is a 'Universal moral values' -which is the reality- and defends that trying to impose one culture's values onto another is therefore wrong.

Also whoever wrote that^ obviously has no idea what is Cultural Relativism or just simply trying to bend it.

Cultural relativism is the principle that an individual person's beliefs and activities should be understood by others in terms of that individual's own culture. Not yours. This is actually what gave birth to the Anthropological principle that there is no 'good' or 'bad' culture, but just human culture.

This is what left supports. This is the very idea says 'fuck you' to 'universal moral values' AS MOST atheists in this forum take it as a correct definition of reality.   So make up your mind.

Questionable terminology aside the message seemed clear enough. If you are someone who lobbies for fair treatment, for example women or homosexuals, then its rather paradoxical for you to apologize for a religion that makes no effort to hide the fact that they would laugh at the idea of reciprocating.

It's worse than Eurocentric arrogance. It's dictating what people should do to have the right culture.  I have lived with muslim women all my life. If you people bothered to interact with these women it would shock you to find out that the very big majority of them are  very content and actually happy with covering themselves.

But nobody bothers to listen to those women, because they are women, right. They are the ultimate victim anyway, who cares what they want, how they are comfortable as long as it is offensive to some people.

STOP telling women what to wear and how to act like, just because you find it offensive and it doesn't fit in your understanding of the 'right culture' or stop denying that we all are living in a man shaped world. 

The problem is a lack of choice. A lot of this boils down to simple ideas such as plentiful choice>sparse choice, or plentiful freedoms>sparse freedoms.

This is why I wouldn't hesitate to claim western values are superior, because these are ideas we can all easily agree are more accommodating to our well being.

The goalposts are exactly at the same spot. The game is the old game. Your tribune has changed. The Westerner identity has got shrunk and the perception of  the unthoucable Western civlisation shattered after 9/11. Terrorism was once a very rare thing in the West land and it happened far far away in the dark land of Mordor. Now ,it is in your backyard and you don't know when it is going to strike.

Well, treating the world like a 'backyard' finally turned that backyard into the real world. And Western people are reacting to this. Humanity has an ugly way of make everyone 'equal' at some point.

Most extremism comes about as a result of conflict within Islam itself; If I lived in a place where this was being perpetuated, then I might be preoccupied with it.

Most of my objections boil down to this misguided obligation to emulate their atrocious role model in other ways.