Email to my Elders - "The REAL Good News!"

[Sleeper]

My wife and I are currently in the process of being excommunicated by the elders of our old church (my wife because she doesn't believe in hell anymore) - even though we told them it was a private matter between us and that if it went public, we wanted it to be on our terms.

But whatever. They were friends of ours and we didn't really have to tell them a damned thing. I decided to because I wanted to have the decency and respect to not just disappear forever from them, but to be honest and tell them the truth - out of friendship. Well, they're by-the-book fundies so... here we are.

But it involves a series of meetings to try and "gain me to Christ" again, which will eventually lead to their arguments against my positions and for theirs. That's fine - I'm your huckleberry when it comes to that.

But things are devolving in a direction that I'm not happy with. They're, of course, charting the course that they are obviously right, and I'm the dumb kid who has duped himself - or let the devil take hold, or whatever. With their intervention, I'll eventually be led back into the fold where I can, in the words of one elder, "Embrace again the fullness and truth of the good news of Jesus Christ - which is enough to compel the hardest of hearts. You won't stand a chance..."

They keep harping on that point, "the good news of Jesus." That's what they want me to embrace, that's what will compel me, that's the central message of Christianity. Well, I've drafted an email to the entire Session (the pastor and all the elders), which includes the passage I've posted below. I'll ask them that, if I'm excommunicated, I be allowed to read this to the church - in front of people who are still my friends.

I haven't sent it, so feedback is appreciated. You want to claim that yours is the only good news? Fine - let's compare...

[spoil:20oqa6tc]

I know that the good news according to you is that your particular religious figure has solved what your particular religion says is a problem. If the first premise - that we're all wretched sinners - is rejected, which can be done simply with common sense, then we're free to move on past this religion and embrace the real good news which is:

We can embrace and love humanity and equality with no caveats. We don't have to look at humanity as if it's diseased and rotten to the core, a belief which forms all of our views about, and actions toward, our fellow man. We can drop the us vs. them mentality. The ones worthy of punishment are actually bad people - people who intend harm. Those worthy of wrath aren't babies, children, sincere, good people just like yourselves who have either been brought up in a different religion, or who have considered your claims and simply said, "Nah, not for me." You are not worthy of eternal torture. And I'm not. We don't have to rationalize that we are and convince ourselves that that kind of thought is right based on the standard of some deity who seems to be hiding from us.

We can embrace scientific progress without caveats. Without believing it to be some massive conspiracy against God. Every day we are all the beneficiaries of scientific progress. It is probably best to not denigrate it. We don't have to mold and shape, and massage, justify, rationalize, and just plain ignore, to try to fit everything into our pre-determined beliefs. We're free to let science and reason form our beliefs about the world and base it all on evidence. Good news - you don't have to have faith! You don't have to live your life according to a hidden deity who wants nothing but your emotions.

We don't have to justify the the slavery, torture, genocide, rape, the most brutal and barbaric abortions imaginable, offering your virgin daughters to mobs of rapists, all the awful things that are represented in that book. We can realize that it probably never actually happened. That it's just stories written by superstitious barbarians 3,000 years ago. We're not born into the dictates of a god who allows, no, positively wills children to die of cancer, people to be abducted, their pleas to him for help falling on deaf ears. We don't have to throw our hands up to the ultimacy of it all and say it'll be made right in the next life. What about this life?

We can embrace this life without caveats. We can live as if it's the only one we have, because, as far as we know, it is. We're not beholden to myths. We don't have to defend the notion that the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all encompassing, creator of the entire cosmos and possessor of all possible knowledge and ability has communicated to us in a way that looks exactly like bronze age myths, with stories that were told first by people who believed in other gods. We can move on from that. We can live in our own place and time. We don't have to take every thought captive and make it obedient to a character with no evidence for his historical existence and who scored a 20 out of 22 on the Rank-Ragland Mythotype Scale. Osiris, by way of comparison, scored 15. Jesus has more mythical characteristics than Osiris. We can live our lives fully and love people for who they are. Because we're social creatures who thrive when we're being creative and loving each other. We don't have to stop and think, "wait - what's the book say about this?" Good news - there likely is no god. Stop worrying and live your life. (With apologies to the English tube ads.)

We can live in our time. We can live with our progress, and with our knowledge - which is better than the ancients. We have no need of Biblical claims. One of my favorite arguments is from Sam Harris: If we suddenly lost our collective memory, all our progress, all our records, our knowledge, methods, discoveries, laws and theories, and we had to build our civilizations up again from nothing, at what point would we need to remind ourselves that Jesus was born of a virgin? That's not an exact quote, but the point is a strong one: what need have we for your good news? It's not news at all to the modern world, much less good news. We have no need of that hypothesis.

There are truly awe-inspiring and wondrous things out there to know, and do, and believe in. Things so wonderful they can compel the blindest of hearts. You won't stand a chance.

[/spoil:20oqa6tc]

[Solitary]

Very well written and to the point.  =D>  Solitary

[Poison Tree]

Do you think there is even the slightest chance you'll be allowed to read that is church?

[Plu]

Except them to zone out the moment you say their whole religion can be rejected by using common sense. As soon as they hear that, they'll shut their common sense down as a defense mechanism.

[stromboli]

I left the LDS Church under much the same conditions. The Elders will do everything they can to stifle you. What you want is the opportunity to explain yourself and show the flaws in their thinking. But the last thing THEY want is for you to get other people to start thinking. I had prepared arguments going into a Bishop's Court but everything was swept aside, and the whole thing boiled down to whether I believed or not. Rather than accept my resignation, they simply ignored it and excommunicated me, making me the bad guy for being involved in heretical studies, or some such. I didn't have the means at the time to fight it, and now it would be pointless.

They will do everything they can to make you into the villains.

[LikelyToBreak]

Bummer, but I am almost certain you will not be allowed to read that letter in church.  My guess is, you and your wife will be ostracized and condemned as heretics.  Your friends in the church will be pressured to never speak to you again.  Sorry about that.  But, they have family values.

Not like those atheists, who don't ostracize their adult children for becoming theists.  Or throw them out of their house if they believe differently then they are supposed to.  Or evil upon evil, they have some sexual perversion.  Yes, those damned atheists would even tolerate, and even support, a child with homosexual tendencies. They don't even try to beat the evil out of their kids.  Yep! Atheists have no family values at all.   :-k  :oops:  

Anyway, I know what you are doing is really difficult.  Theist family members and friends will probably ostracize you, and then blame you for it.  I pity you for what you are about to go through.  Stuff like this is what makes me a misanthropist.

[aitm]

No offense, but what is the matter with you people? Just leave and let them wonder. Who the fuck cares and why start a shit fest unless its all about seeking some sort of self congratulatory pat on the back. They most assuredly won't give a fuck about you. Stop with the "but listen to me" and go with the "see ya later".

[Plu]

I'm guessing they like their friends. Such horrible people they are, for at least trying to give their friends a chance to hear both sides of the story and make their own decision on whether or not they never speak to their non-believing friend again.

[aitm]

I'm guessing they like their friends. Such horrible people they are, for at least trying to give their friends a chance to hear both sides of the story and make their own decision on whether or not they never speak to their non-believing friend again.

yeah, right. Bull-shit. Hey Ima gonna come over and shit in yer church whatyasay eh?  How about the old fashioned way eh? You go over to someones house and talk to them. Gee, that seems pretty non-confrontational and respectful. Oh hell no, lets not do that, lets march over and walk in their house of worship and tell them how stupid they are. Yeah, that makes them nice and polite. What a mop.

[Plu]

Not saying I agree with the method (or the speech) but I do understand the reasoning. Especially if you have dozens of people. And you don't want to go by everyone's house one at a time. And have rumors going about because you can't get everyone together to properly explain yourself.

(And of course, in every other kind of group-community thing when one person leaves it's perfectly acceptable for them to state their reasons for leaving during get-together time and say their pleasant goodbyes. It's only in religion where if you leave you get kicked out and then your group leader tells horrible stories about you and makes everyone never talk to you again.)

[stromboli]

No offense, but what is the matter with you people? Just leave and let them wonder. Who the fuck cares and why start a shit fest unless its all about seeking some sort of self congratulatory pat on the back. They most assuredly won't give a fuck about you. Stop with the "but listen to me" and go with the "see ya later".

Good point, Aitm. In my case, at the time the idea of leaving Mormonism voluntarily was practically earth shaking, and more to do with my confrontational personality and the circumstances attached to it. Now, I would give your advice- just melt into the forest and disappear, so to speak. It depends a lot on circumstances and your view of things at the time.

Right now, the LDS Chuch is out like a month processing people sending in their resignation letters. It took a civil suit to reach that point, something that hadn't happened in my time. Now the internet is rife with exmormon sites giving information on the process. The church tries to force you to go through the bishopric and deal with the "you're going to lose your celestial privileges, your priesthood," etc. bullshit.

It is indicative of the change that now something like 40% or more of LDS members are inactive and non-tithe payers, even though they are carried on the books as members. Any time you see LDS statistics, realize they are bullshit.

[Colanth]

I'd tell them that BEFORE there were any meetings, you be allowed to read a statement to the entire congregation.  That the congregation be told, before you start reading, that you're being allowed to read the entire statement without interruption.  And that they then allow you to do so.  Only then will you meet with them to discuss anything.

If they refuse, you can notify the congregation - flyers on telephone poles, notices stuffed into mailbox flags, an ad in the local paper, etc. - that you agreed to meet with them as long as you could explain your position to the congregation, but they refused to allow you to do so.  You'll look good, they'll look like what they are.

(Don't count on them even agreeing to it, then stopping you.  They'll demand that you meet on their terms.  At that point, it's your choice whether to just leave or to tell them that you're going to make their silly decision public.)

[Sleeper]

A few years ago one of my friends was excommunicated from that very church for atheism. He still had to live with his parents though, who still made him come to the church. After one service he was sitting in the pew reading a book - completely alone. I went up to him and said a few friendly statements. Small talk, as we would normally do. Nothing about the elephant, just a bit of chat to a friend.

I was pulled into an empty room by one of the elders and told, "We don't relate to him in that way anymore. I know you're trying to be friendly, but if you are to engage him at all, it must be in an evangelistic way only." The elder gave me a pass because I was still relatively new to their tradition.

"Treat him as you would a gentile or a tax collector..." Matthew 18:17. If I'm excommunicated, there are no more friends there. Someone in the church died recently and we went to the visitation this past Thursday. I know when I'm being ignored, and I know a cold shoulder when I feel it - and both were obviously present that night. I felt the uncomfortable chill the second I stepped in - even after we went out of our way to pay our respects to the man.

These people have basically been my only friends for years now, which is fine - I'm not whining about that, but there is no going to their house, or writing them messages, or anything. If they speak to me at all it'll be only to implore me to come back to the faith.

I didn't seek the elders out, they sought me. Each family is under the leadership of a certain elder, and ours contacted me because he hadn't heard from us in a long time. So, instead of ducking him forever, I chose to treat him with respect and be honest with him. I tend to think that everyone should be treated that way no matter what they believe - a character flaw of mine, I guess.

I spoke with him one-on-one and made known my desire to be honest with him, a friend, and my wishes to keep this a private matter. Those wishes were not honored and the shit storm has swirled up around me. So if my personal business is going to be dragged out into public against my wishes like this, I am at least going to request that I have my say. That I be the one who has the last say to my friends.

It's not necessarily the above that I would say - there is another point I have about the barriers being put up between us not being of my construction, but of theirs. Maybe I would say that one instead. If the words fall on deaf ears, then I suppose I'll know that they weren't truly friends, and good riddance. But if any friendships can be preserved, I'd prefer that - though I doubt it.

They may very well be fair and allow me to speak - I could honestly see that happening. But I'm under no illusions that they will. So yes, Colanth, I'm trying to take the steps necessary to cause a situation where I look like the one trying, and they look like the ones partitioning. Because they are.

I'm attending my first CAA (Charlotte Atheists and Agnostics) party tonight. I'm sure I'll meet some interesting folks there.