Religion: The Good and The Bad

[ApostateLois]

Religion, when properly practiced...

What does that mean? What is the proper way to practice religion, and who gets to determine this?

linguistic language

That's an oxymoron. Sorry, but it bugs me.  :)

If religion was gone tomorrow, would the world change for the better?

Probably not. Humans will always find reasons to hate each other, with or without an imaginary God spurring them on.

[LikelyToBreak]

SGOS, I too checked out the Unitarian Church a while back.  While I think they may have been a good option at one time, then they got political.  Which is why the American Unitarian Church branched off from them.  I haven't checked into either in about 5 years and they may have changed, but I doubt either is my cup to tea.  But, both are probably good for those loosening their ties to Christianity.

There is always the chance a religion will go political.  No matter what its' teachings are.  I think the atheist organizations need to watch this too.  As long as they stay on subject of freedom from religion they are okay.  When they start branching off into other areas, then they become just another PAC.  While many atheists may feel like using atheists organizations to advance their political agenda, I think it would not cause divisions which would tear them apart.

[SixNein]

Religion, when properly practiced...

What does that mean? What is the proper way to practice religion, and who gets to determine this?

The subject allows his or her self to be open to suggestion.

Probably not. Humans will always find reasons to hate each other, with or without an imaginary God spurring them on.

By looking at demographics, I'm not sure it's going to be a problem worth pondering anyway. If anything, the united states may become even more religious.

[WitchSabrina]

If there's no authority - then it's not a god............   right?
 :-D

Yes and no.

The vast majority of theists believe in an autocratic god who commands and judges.  Even atheists incorporate those aspects of the god concept into their definition of a would be god, probably because we use the definition that all the believers around us use.  So traditionally, authority, as well as sentience, are part of the description of a god.

However, Pantheists don't include authority as a necessary prereq for a god.  Some might, just as each Christian or Muslim tweaks the concept of god to fit their desires, but most don't describe any special human like qualities to the universe that they worship.  They do not describe the universe as having authority or conscious knowledge.  They don't give the universe any more qualities than the average scientist would.  They just worship it.  

Atheists sometimes counter with the argument, but the universe is not really a god, probably due to the fact that authority, power, and omniscience is not part of the object of worship, but depending on the definition you use, it's not a requirement.  And that's the rub.

You wouldn't deny that Thor was a god.  While Thor is given the attribute of authority, atheists do not give him the attribute of being real, but we still quickly recognize the concept "Thor" as a god.

Why must atheists require authority of a god, when we don't even require actual existence in reality of a god?  It's mostly a matter of how we grow up with a concept, and in the case of atheists, how we react to a concept.

The broadest definition of god that I've actually seen in some dictionaries is "...that which is deified".  No special attributes, not even authority or sentience, are required other than someone someplace worships it.

Okaaay....
*head scratch*   But doesn't worship imply some form of authority/higher power? Something More than.......mere mortals?  I'd counter with rarely does one worship that which is his equal.

just sayin.........

[SGOS]

Okaaay....
*head scratch*   But doesn't worship imply some form of authority/higher power? Something More than.......mere mortals?  I'd counter with rarely does one worship that which is his equal.

just sayin.........

For the pantheists I've talked with, not the way it does with Christians and Muslims.  Authority, not at all.  Higher power, maybe, but it's a stretch at best.  Something more than ..... mere mortals?  That would be true, but only that all mortals are a part of the universe, with the universe being the sum of all the parts.

I think I have a general understanding of pantheism, but as in other religions, individual pantheists often tweak their definitions.  Some do attribute magical type powers and supernatural qualities to the universe, but they are not the mainstream.

It IS a *head scratch*, however.  Why the need to worship the universe and even call it a god in the first place?  I've never gotten a satisfying answer to that.  The most articulate pantheist I have talked with, simply says it's a need to worship a god inside of him, a need which he admits he cannot explain or even justify.

But like you, I think, the need to worship something makes no sense to me.  I think pantheism is just another form of human hooey, but without the belief in magic.

[SGOS]

If there's no authority - then it's not a god............   right?
 :-D

Yes and no.

The vast majority of theists believe in an autocratic god who commands and judges.  Even atheists incorporate those aspects of the god concept into their definition of a would be god, probably because we use the definition that all the believers around us use.  So traditionally, authority, as well as sentience, are part of the description of a god.

However, Pantheists don't include authority as a necessary prereq for a god.  Some might, just as each Christian or Muslim tweaks the concept of god to fit their desires, but most don't describe any special human like qualities to the universe that they worship.  They do not describe the universe as having authority or conscious knowledge.  They don't give the universe any more qualities than the average scientist would.  They just worship it.  

Atheists sometimes counter with the argument, but the universe is not really a god, probably due to the fact that authority, power, and omniscience is not part of the object of worship, but depending on the definition you use, it's not a requirement.  And that's the rub.

You wouldn't deny that Thor was a god.  While Thor is given the attribute of authority, atheists do not give him the attribute of being real, but we still quickly recognize the concept "Thor" as a god.

Why must atheists require authority of a god, when we don't even require actual existence in reality of a god?  It's mostly a matter of how we grow up with a concept, and in the case of atheists, how we react to a concept.

The broadest definition of god that I've actually seen in some dictionaries is "...that which is deified".  No special attributes, not even authority or sentience, are required other than someone someplace worships it.

Okaaay....
*head scratch*   But doesn't worship imply some form of authority/higher power? Something More than.......mere mortals?  I'd counter with rarely does one worship that which is his equal.

just sayin.........

I had to see the endodontist today, which involves 80 miles of driving round trip, and I thought about your question some more.  I think part of the "mystery" might involve the meaning of worship.  I suspect it means different things to different people.  I think I remember that most articulate pantheist saying that he did not pray to the universe.  Obviously, the universe is not conscious and wouldn't understand anything anyway, but I never asked him what he meant by worship.  He was much more knowledgeable about cosmology than I, and I know for a fact that he did not ascribe any absurd attributes to the universe.  At most, he saw it as just the platform which gave rise to human consciousness as we know it, which is the same way I see it.

So he's not worshiping a traditional higher power.  It's more like standing in awe before it, I think, which to him is "worship".  But we didn't pursue that any deeper in our conversation.

On the other end of the scale, I talked to a pantheist in an Alcoholics Anonymous forum one time, who just said he had picked the universe to be his higher power (a must do for most members of AA).  He didn't even call himself a pantheist.  I'm not sure he even knew the word, but in AA you must ask special favors of your higher power and confide in it.  So what the Hell he thought he was accomplishing with the universe as a higher power, I have no idea, but he went through the motions of prayer and did the steps as recommended in AA.

From what I understand most pantheists don't consider the universe to be conscious, however.  Some of them do get together, and I suppose have something like a church service.  Well at least it's a gathering of some sort.  Exactly what goes on, I'm not sure.  I doubt if they play Bingo, but they share some kind of experience together.  At least, some do.

[WitchSabrina]

Okaaay....
*head scratch*   But doesn't worship imply some form of authority/higher power? Something More than.......mere mortals?  I'd counter with rarely does one worship that which is his equal.

just sayin.........

I had to see the endodontist today, which involves 80 miles of driving round trip, and I thought about your question some more.  I think part of the "mystery" might involve the meaning of worship.  I suspect it means different things to different people.  I think I remember that most articulate pantheist saying that he did not pray to the universe.  Obviously, the universe is not conscious and wouldn't understand anything anyway, but I never asked him what he meant by worship.  He was much more knowledgeable about cosmology than I, and I know for a fact that he did not ascribe any absurd attributes to the universe.  At most, he saw it as just the platform which gave rise to human consciousness as we know it, which is the same way I see it.

So he's not worshiping a traditional higher power.  It's more like standing in awe before it, I think, which to him is "worship".  But we didn't pursue that any deeper in our conversation.

On the other end of the scale, I talked to a pantheist in an Alcoholics Anonymous forum one time, who just said he had picked the universe to be his higher power (a must do for most members of AA).  He didn't even call himself a pantheist.  I'm not sure he even knew the word, but in AA you must ask special favors of your higher power and confide in it.  So what the Hell he thought he was accomplishing with the universe as a higher power, I have no idea, but he went through the motions of prayer and did the steps as recommended in AA.

From what I understand most pantheists don't consider the universe to be conscious, however.  Some of them do get together, and I suppose have something like a church service.  Well at least it's a gathering of some sort.  Exactly what goes on, I'm not sure.  I doubt if they play Bingo, but they share some kind of experience together.  At least, some do.

Maybe it should be called awe-inspired and not *worship* (?)
Anyway..........  thanks for giving it more thought and seeing it through further with me.   :)

[Thumpalumpacus]

The question is, do the pluses outweigh the minuses?

I don't for a minute think that they do.  Religion encourages minimal thinking and questioning.  Religion sells a pat answer that defies reality.

Now, if an addict uses religion to clean up, more power to him, I guess.  I, myself, don't regard that addict's mind as being any freer, but at least ODing on the new drug isn't so often fatal.

[Colanth]

Now, if an addict uses religion to clean up, more power to him, I guess.  I, myself, don't regard that addict's mind as being any freer, but at least ODing on the new drug isn't so often fatal.

For the particular theist - but tell that to the victims of religious wars and inquisitions.