Quote from: "Shiranu"Sports are no different than any other art;

Oh no you didn't! You did not just compare sporting events to art. Oops yes you did. So clearly you no earthly idea what art is. Here's a hint. There is entertainment, and then there is art. Sometimes something that qualifies as art can also serve as entertainment. But being entertainment in no way shape or form ever qualifies anything as automatically being art. Professional sports are most definitely entertainment. But they ain't ever art. No sir, not even close.

So if could be so inclined to change your statement to read that sports are no different than any other form of entertainment, then everything you said afterward is completely valid and I agree completely. But if you're going to insist on calling it art than I'll have alternative but to consider you someone who doesn't have the faintest idea what art is.

QuoteIt's only when its something YOU don't enjoy that it becomes "bad".

Well for one thing I never said it was bad, I said I don't understand the fascination with it. But even saying it that way isn't really stating it clearly. If you enjoy being entertained by watching sports of some sort, I get that. But like I said, I've known extremely few people who fit that description, i.e. people who just enjoy watching baseball for instance because they're fascinated by the minutia of how the game is played. They don't care who's playing or who wins, they just like watching talented people play the game. That is a sports fan. I've known one or two people like that. Most people who are into sports are actually into a team. And what I don't get is getting depressed when your team loses. I like movies, I like music, I like books. But I don't give a rats ass who wins a grammy or an emmy or any other award for their creative output. The same cannot be said for a great number of sports fans. And that is what I will never understand. I don't get it. I never will. I don't take any form of entertainment that seriously and quite frankly I wonder about the mental stability of anyone who does.

Oh, someone who describes art as more than a non-word. :o
What do you consider is the factor that divides art from non-art? Most of the people I've heard talk about art basically are so vague about that anything can be art, which makes it a nonsense word.

And I agree that many people take entertainment way too seriously. Especially entertainment that they aren't even involved in.

QuoteOh no you didn't! You did not just compare sporting events to art. Oops yes you did.

Yes, I did. There is an art to being a GOOD sports player in any sport. If dance and ice skating is an art, than so too is the basketball player who can spin past you, be bumped in midair, change his body position and still manage to sink the basket. And if you have ever watched a player like Messi, Ronaldinho, Henry, etc. play soccer... it IS art.

Art is defined as the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, therefor these player's DO produce works of art.

QuoteProfessional sports are most definitely entertainment. But they ain't ever art. No sir, not even close.

But if you're going to insist on calling it art than I'll have alternative but to consider you someone who doesn't have the faintest idea what art is.

As already proven above, by definition they can be perceived as art. You sound like the people who say, "Ew... modern art is not REAL art and if you like it then you clearly don't know what REAL art is!".

Is that a, "No True Artsman Argument"? :P

QuoteBut like I said, I've known extremely few people who fit that description, i.e. people who just enjoy watching baseball for instance because they're fascinated by the minutia of how the game is played. They don't care who's playing or who wins, they just like watching talented people play the game. That is a sports fan. I've known one or two people like that. Most people who are into sports are actually into a team.

I don't see why you cant be both. I have favourite teams (Spurs, Tottenham, etc.), but at the same time I enjoy watching the sport being played. Hell, I am watching the D-League summer league teams at 7 in the morning just to see certain player's play. But if I didn't enjoy watching the game then I wouldn't have those favourite teams, and I would assume that's how most people are. For example I cant stand football or baseball, hence the reason I don't watch my "home" teams. I root for them because they are the home team, but I wouldn't go out of my way to watch one of their games. Just because you put a preference over other teams doesn't mean you therefor don't like the sport.

QuoteBut I don't give a rats ass who wins a grammy or an emmy or any other award for their creative output. The same cannot be said for a great number of sports fans. And that is what I will never understand. I don't get it. I never will. I don't take any form of entertainment that seriously and quite frankly I wonder about the mental stability of anyone who does.

And if you weren't so condescending about it, I wouldn't have any problem with that. Like what you want, and let other's like what they want, but just because someone enjoy's something you don't doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it. You are wondering about the mental stability of people who are simply experiencing the most well documented trait in humanity... that we are social, group creatures.

QuoteI root for them because they are the home team,

Why would you do that? That seems like a very silly reason to root for someone.

Quote from: "Plu"

QuoteI root for them because they are the home team,

Why would you do that? That seems like a very silly reason to root for someone.

It's where I grew up, and I like where I grew up, therefor I am going to support groups from where I grew up. It's no different than rooting for the Italian national team because you're Italian... they are part of the same group you are from, you have a little more vested interest in them. It doesn't mean you don't like the other teams, they are just your preference.

I find rooting for a national team just because you came from that country just as silly. I see no reason to support some people I don't know over another group of people I don't know just because they happen to have their base of operation closer to the place where I live.

Then again; I don't consider myself "part of the same group" either. Distance does not a group make.

Quote from: "Plu"I find rooting for a national team just because you came from that country just as silly. I see no reason to support some people I don't know over another group of people I don't know just because they happen to have their base of operation closer to the place where I live.

Then again; I don't consider myself "part of the same group" either. Distance does not a group make.

I think it's because most of the known civilized world is indoctrinated with at least some form of patriotism, so people have a tendency to mirror that in many aspects of life.

That might very well be it. I've always considered it a silly concept. But most people seem to either not give the concept a lot of thought or just desperately want to belong in a group even though they wouldn't get along with most members of it.

See? This is what I am talking about being meaninglessly condescending...

I don't root for Italy/Germany just because I desperately want to be a part of a group (that i am already a part of...), nor is it because I haven't given it much thought. I have. I find finding yourself better than anyone else because of your ethnicity abhorrent. Nor am I a nationalist... while I love Germany, Italy is one hella-flawed country and I admit that.

And no shit I wouldn't get along with members of those groups... just like I don't get along with every atheist I ever met. I figure yall don't get along with certain other atheists as well, so why did yall join an atheist group? Two atheists have less in common than any two people of any nationality, so shouldn't I be saying you haven't given much thought to joining an atheist group?

I root for them, and my home team, because it's a group I am a part of and its FUN. Not everything in life needs  a 200 page philosophical dissertation on why you should or shouldn't do it.

Quote from: "Broede"Should anyone be making that kind of money that contributes nothing of lasting good to society?  I agree to a point but there are very, very few musicians or artists who make the kind of money actors or athletes make.

they should have gone into sports...who cares what they make. if people are willing to pay it then i don't begrudge people from being paid it.

QuoteDon't assume that, just because I'm talking about sports, I wouldn't criticize anything else just because I enjoy it.  I occasionally watch the Super Bowl or World Series.  I also don't delude myself into thinking these people are really worth the multi-million dollar contracts they hold.  I have nothing against people aspiring to be great or making a lot of money, but the point I'm trying to make is how people venerate... no, *worship*... these people.  Riots are started because of the outcome of games.  The witless Christians who say God is on the side of the Yankees mere weeks after 9/11.

the thread is about sports, not someone that killed another person at the opera...which i would be fine with btw. I would like to see that. You just showed how you are a hypocrite, you will occassionally watch the Super Bowl, the epitome of corporate greed and inflation at the same time bitching about the players who get paid the money...well done.

as for the riots...people riot...alot of times they have nothing to do with the sports team and are just assholes.

QuoteEnjoy sports?  Want to have a barbecue and bullshit with your friends?  Fine, have at it.  Have your fantasy football league.  Buy all your favorite team's paraphernalia.  Just don't fucking kill people over it.  And yes, if you're killing people over a game, you ARE a neanderthal.  No, I take that back -- a neanderthal would know better.

this is just stupid, it's not like murder is an epidemic at sporting events. there are lots of underlying factors when something like this happens, same when a person shoots up a school, place of work and so on.

QuoteAnd no shit I wouldn't get along with members of those groups... just like I don't get along with every atheist I ever met. I figure yall don't get along with certain other atheists as well, so why did yall join an atheist group? Two atheists have less in common than any two people of any nationality, so shouldn't I be saying you haven't given much thought to joining an atheist group?

I don't consider myself "part" of this group, (or any other group of atheists) though. I'm just a member on these forums, and I come here because I enjoy the conversations. And I'm staying here as long as the conversations are worthwhile, and I'll leave when they no longer are. I give no special consideration to anyone just for being on this forum. Only for personal actions.

Also don't immediately assume you are part of "most people". You should know yourself well enough to determine whether or not you fall under the people I mentioned. I did not, nor do I intend to, judge you as someone who does or does not desperately want to belong to anything.

And you don't need 200 pages of dissertation, no. But I feel you do need at least 1 reason beyond "because that's what people do", because I never considered the argument from tradition to be worthwhile. But that's just me. If you do it because it's fun, that sounds like reason enough to me. I occasionally engage in traditional things because I enjoy them. But the real reason isn't the tradition, it's the enjoyment of participation.

Quote from: "Johan"Oh no you didn't! You did not just compare sporting events to art. Oops yes you did. So clearly you no earthly idea what art is. Here's a hint. There is entertainment, and then there is art. Sometimes something that qualifies as art can also serve as entertainment. But being entertainment in no way shape or form ever qualifies anything as automatically being art. Professional sports are most definitely entertainment. But they ain't ever art. No sir, not even close.

and there it is...the implied superiority of 'art' against sports. sports can be art, anything can be art, but not everything can be a sport. art can be entertaining as well. art is different to each person.

QuoteSo if could be so inclined to change your statement to read that sports are no different than any other form of entertainment, then everything you said afterward is completely valid and I agree completely. But if you're going to insist on calling it art than I'll have alternative but to consider you someone who doesn't have the faintest idea what art is.

right back atchya.

QuoteWell for one thing I never said it was bad, I said I don't understand the fascination with it. But even saying it that way isn't really stating it clearly. If you enjoy being entertained by watching sports of some sort, I get that. But like I said, I've known extremely few people who fit that description, i.e. people who just enjoy watching baseball for instance because they're fascinated by the minutia of how the game is played. They don't care who's playing or who wins, they just like watching talented people play the game. That is a sports fan. I've known one or two people like that. Most people who are into sports are actually into a team. And what I don't get is getting depressed when your team loses. I like movies, I like music, I like books. But I don't give a rats ass who wins a grammy or an emmy or any other award for their creative output. The same cannot be said for a great number of sports fans. And that is what I will never understand. I don't get it. I never will. I don't take any form of entertainment that seriously and quite frankly I wonder about the mental stability of anyone who does.

of fuck off. taking a sports team seriously is not the sign of a person with a mental problem. all this is is an argument from ignorance, if you don't understand it then it must be wrong or stupid right? you, Plu, and Broede have all said at some point having an interest in a sports team, to a point any of you don't understand...either silly, mentally unstable, indoctrinated, and implied an overall lack of intelligence on the part who is rooting. no one is forcing you to watch sports, or talk about sports, or participate in sports. move along.

Quoteanything can be art

So "art" is a word that has no meaning then? That's how I usually see it used, and why I don't use the word myself.

Quote from: "Plu"And you don't need 200 pages of dissertation, no. But I feel you do need at least 1 reason beyond "because that's what people do", because I never considered the argument from tradition to be worthwhile. But that's just me. If you do it because it's fun, that sounds like reason enough to me. I occasionally engage in traditional things because I enjoy them. But the real reason isn't the tradition, it's the enjoyment of participation.

he doesn't need any reasons...it could be he has a crippling gambling problem and that wouldn't even be wrong.

I grew up watching a certain hockey team because my father watched them. we would watch the games together...still do. tradition is one thing. sports is a unifier, I can go to another city and see someone wearing a Leaf hat and we instantly have something in common. It can bring people together but it can also create rivalries with people for no other reason than who they hope wins in a game.

as i said at the start of the post, my best friend got cancer when he was 16. he couldn't play ice hockey so we played alot of street hockey, all his friends did. for all of us it was a way to hang out and not dwell on the fact he had cancer. to him hockey was more than just a sport but a release from chemo treatments. he could watch his team play and forget what he was going through and be healthy.

I still play hockey, i coach football, i have forced my oldest son to play football and there are reasons for it. appreciation is where you find it, at a sporting event, in nature. I absolutely hate camping but I know people that love it. i don't do but I don't tell them they need to give me reasons why they like it lest i don't think it's worthwhile.

Quote from: "Plu"

Quoteanything can be art

So "art" is a word that has no meaning then? That's how I usually see it used, and why I don't use the word myself.

to me it doesn't (have meaning) but I have been unsuccessful in having everyone use my definition of words.