President Obama Called Nigger By Tea Partiers

Started by stromboli, February 15, 2013, 09:40:16 AM

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commonsense822

Alright so I may have not exactly expressed myself as coherently as I had wished to.  Forgive me, sometimes it's hard to gather my thoughts before morning coffee.  Anyways, I'm going to really try and expand this topic because this is actually something I'm pretty passionate about discussing.  So I apologize ahead of time because this might be a pretty long post.

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Okaaay.
So the solution(s) to correcting horrid attitudes reflecting discrimination would be ___________________?
If pointing out to someone "Whoa that's racist" is only going to make them MORE racist ---
erm.......

yeah I don't know where we're headed here.

Ideally the solution would be to bring the conversation of how racial dialogue affects our community, society, and various cultures to the forefront of the public mind.  And that would best be achieved via education.  Take a deeper look into the various cultures and what they are comprised of.

As for pointing out a comment that is racial, it's all about how the issue is broached.  For example, when I was in 7th grade in my history class we were studying about Asia.  I had been reading an older book (I was kinda nerdy) that had used 'Oriental' to describe someone that was Asian.  So in the course of this class I decided to use my newly found flashy word and said something along the lines of "The Oriental people at the time...."  After I had finished my sentence, my teacher calmly told me that that term was not politically correct and we didn't use it anymore.  I didn't feel ashamed, I didn't feel ostracized, I felt informed.  I was ignorant of the issue, and I was corrected.  However imagine if that teacher had instead told me that the comment was racist.  This is where the magic of brain psychology comes in.  Your brain has to justify that you are not a racist to keep within your own moral code.  So if she says what you said was racist, and you have to justify that your not, then your brain will most likely do so by thinking that she must be wrong.  And there ignorance is solidified.

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"My grandparents were racists.  I found it pretty hard to swallow when i figured that out around age 9 or 10 buuut...  I happened to Know them - and I knew them for GOOD people.  Had a person of ethic persuasion dropped over in their front yard - they'd have rushed out to help in any way they could.  So - No - that really DID belong to that generation.  My mother's generation there was improvement - as there was with My generation.....   and so on.
But I'm not sure ignoring it makes it any better when it raises it's ugly fucking head (?)
And I'm not sure how that belongs to the "left" or "Liberals" (?)

the belonging to liberals part was what I was hoping you'd get to.............  that's all.

I'm in the same boat there as you.  We have pictures of my grandmother protesting with signs the desegregation of Boston schools.  And I too am positive that she would help someone of another race if they needed help.  But she, similarly like your grandparents was racist because of previous misconceptions that she had fostered by those with similar views, and further enforced by those attacking them.  Essentially bigotry bred forth from ignorance.  The idea is that to create any real change an actual discussion has to take place, rather than just the impressions of everyone's own personal views.

I want to stress though that I am not saying that it is the left or liberals that are solely responsible for the prevalence of racism in America.  I am saying that both sides have blindly beaten the topics with sticks.  In the political realm the left's zero tolerance attitude towards racism has fostered hidden pockets of deep racism in the country, even though the reason for doing so was done with good intentions.  The right on the other hand has capitalized on those pockets of racism, in many ways purposefully.  If you were to ask me which side IS the most racist I am confident that I could tell you objectively that the right is certainly so.  But if you were to ask me which side is more responsible for racism still being prevalent I would say they share an almost equal responsibility.

Quote from: "SGOS"
Quote from: "commonsense822"In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.
This is a dicey claim, I think.  Ignorance and bigotry are so entwined, I'm not sure there is a difference relevant to this conversation.

They are definitely entwined, but it is because ignorance leads to bigotry.  Here are definitions of the two terms.

[center:1b9qgbzb]big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree]
noun, plural big·ot·ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.[/center:1b9qgbzb]

[center:1b9qgbzb]ig·no·rance [ig-ner-uhns]
noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

AND


ig·no·rant [ig-ner-uhnt]
adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.[/center:1b9qgbzb]

You can clearly see how ignorance can lead to bigotry.  The misconceptions you hold in your ignorance forms into bigotry after repeated attacks against your moral character.  This 'Progression of Racism' is similar to a cancer.  When it's in the early stages of ignorance it is easier to kill.  But once it progresses into full bigotry it is almost futile.

Quote from: "SGOS"
Quote from: "commonsense822"Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  
I don't think I agree.  This discussion is precisely about offensive language.  It doesn't become inoffensive simply because it can be explained away by bigotry.

Yes this discussion is about offensive language but that is honestly because we are an atheist forum.  Not to sound elitist, but facing facts here, atheists are amongst some of most rational, logical, open minded people.  That is why we are able to have this discussion and why I am comfortable voicing my opinion here.  Most of us here are able to look objectively at things because we have taken an empirical approach to our lives and are therefore able to approach topics such as this one in a scholarly method.  This topic would not survive on your more popular social mediums (i.e. YouTube comments, Yahoo! Answers, etc) without getting completely overpopulated with answers such as "I don't care niggars are gross and should die!" or "You degenerate racist scum, I hope you die you sick prick!"  Those are both real comments I have seen.

Quote from: "SGOS"
Quote from: "commonsense822"Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too... And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

Whatever the actual goals of the Tea Party are, you've nailed a fundamental aspect of its strategy.  At the height of Tea Party media coverage, it identified itself as the great intimidator, showing up at town meetings held my various politicians, and simply shouting them down so they couldn't speak.  They created an atmosphere of chaos.  By throwing in racial slurs, showing up to rally with guns, and magnifying their affected loss of self control, they intensified their intimidation and fear factor.  They acted like if they didn't get their way, the next step will be outright rioting and revolution by force.

Perhaps they actually have a good idea or two, or maybe they have nothing at all.  It really doesn't make any difference if they are going to act like... what's the word?  assholes?  Our current leadership are big enough assholes.  That's part of the problem.  Bigger assholes aren't going to make it better.

The Republican Party has been using the Southern Strategy for a while, the Tea Party is kind of the mutant offspring of equal parts ignorance, bigotry, and fear paired with a hyper-partisan political field (in my opinion).

Again sorry for the extreme length of this post, like I said this is a topic I have a fair interest in and am pretty passionate about.

Thumpalumpacus

I don't doubt that some Tea Partiers are motivated by the fact that we have a black president.  I don't think it's a coincidence that it took off in early 2009.  

I also don't think that all Tea Partiers are racist yokels.
<insert witty aphorism here>

Sleeper

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I don't doubt that some Tea Partiers are motivated by the fact that we have a black president.  I don't think it's a coincidence that it took off in early 2009.  

I also don't think that all Tea Partiers are racist yokels.
It supposedly started with Ron Paul's 2008 presidential campaign, but it has looooooong since been co-opted out of that.
Because LaPlace still holds sway.

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Sleeper"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I don't doubt that some Tea Partiers are motivated by the fact that we have a black president.  I don't think it's a coincidence that it took off in early 2009.  

I also don't think that all Tea Partiers are racist yokels.
It supposedly started with Ron Paul's 2008 presidential campaign, but it has looooooong since been co-opted out of that.

Well, there's been a long strain of libertarianism in American politics.  I think the "co-opting"  is partly a matter of conservatives fleeing a Republican party that is full of shit, and partly a matter of the media focusing on the more sensational images and rhetoric of the new adherents.
<insert witty aphorism here>

WitchSabrina

Quote from: "commonsense822"Alright so I may have not exactly expressed myself as coherently as I had wished to.  Forgive me, sometimes it's hard to gather my thoughts before morning coffee.  Anyways, I'm going to really try and expand this topic because this is actually something I'm pretty passionate about discussing.  So I apologize ahead of time because this might be a pretty long post.

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Okaaay.
So the solution(s) to correcting horrid attitudes reflecting discrimination would be ___________________?
If pointing out to someone "Whoa that's racist" is only going to make them MORE racist ---
erm.......

yeah I don't know where we're headed here.

Ideally the solution would be to bring the conversation of how racial dialogue affects our community, society, and various cultures to the forefront of the public mind.  And that would best be achieved via education.  Take a deeper look into the various cultures and what they are comprised of.

As for pointing out a comment that is racial, it's all about how the issue is broached.  For example, when I was in 7th grade in my history class we were studying about Asia.  I had been reading an older book (I was kinda nerdy) that had used 'Oriental' to describe someone that was Asian.  So in the course of this class I decided to use my newly found flashy word and said something along the lines of "The Oriental people at the time...."  After I had finished my sentence, my teacher calmly told me that that term was not politically correct and we didn't use it anymore.  I didn't feel ashamed, I didn't feel ostracized, I felt informed.  I was ignorant of the issue, and I was corrected.  However imagine if that teacher had instead told me that the comment was racist.  This is where the magic of brain psychology comes in.  Your brain has to justify that you are not a racist to keep within your own moral code.  So if she says what you said was racist, and you have to justify that your not, then your brain will most likely do so by thinking that she must be wrong.  And there ignorance is solidified.

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"My grandparents were racists.  I found it pretty hard to swallow when i figured that out around age 9 or 10 buuut...  I happened to Know them - and I knew them for GOOD people.  Had a person of ethic persuasion dropped over in their front yard - they'd have rushed out to help in any way they could.  So - No - that really DID belong to that generation.  My mother's generation there was improvement - as there was with My generation.....   and so on.
But I'm not sure ignoring it makes it any better when it raises it's ugly fucking head (?)
And I'm not sure how that belongs to the "left" or "Liberals" (?)

the belonging to liberals part was what I was hoping you'd get to.............  that's all.

I'm in the same boat there as you.  We have pictures of my grandmother protesting with signs the desegregation of Boston schools.  And I too am positive that she would help someone of another race if they needed help.  But she, similarly like your grandparents was racist because of previous misconceptions that she had fostered by those with similar views, and further enforced by those attacking them.  Essentially bigotry bred forth from ignorance.  The idea is that to create any real change an actual discussion has to take place, rather than just the impressions of everyone's own personal views.

I want to stress though that I am not saying that it is the left or liberals that are solely responsible for the prevalence of racism in America.  I am saying that both sides have blindly beaten the topics with sticks.  In the political realm the left's zero tolerance attitude towards racism has fostered hidden pockets of deep racism in the country, even though the reason for doing so was done with good intentions.  The right on the other hand has capitalized on those pockets of racism, in many ways purposefully.  If you were to ask me which side IS the most racist I am confident that I could tell you objectively that the right is certainly so.  But if you were to ask me which side is more responsible for racism still being prevalent I would say they share an almost equal responsibility.

Quote from: "SGOS"
Quote from: "commonsense822"In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.
This is a dicey claim, I think.  Ignorance and bigotry are so entwined, I'm not sure there is a difference relevant to this conversation.

They are definitely entwined, but it is because ignorance leads to bigotry.  Here are definitions of the two terms.

[center:289ui6wh]big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree]
noun, plural big·ot·ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.[/center:289ui6wh]

[center:289ui6wh]ig·no·rance [ig-ner-uhns]
noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

AND


ig·no·rant [ig-ner-uhnt]
adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.[/center:289ui6wh]

You can clearly see how ignorance can lead to bigotry.  The misconceptions you hold in your ignorance forms into bigotry after repeated attacks against your moral character.  This 'Progression of Racism' is similar to a cancer.  When it's in the early stages of ignorance it is easier to kill.  But once it progresses into full bigotry it is almost futile.

Quote from: "SGOS"
Quote from: "commonsense822"Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  
I don't think I agree.  This discussion is precisely about offensive language.  It doesn't become inoffensive simply because it can be explained away by bigotry.

Yes this discussion is about offensive language but that is honestly because we are an atheist forum.  Not to sound elitist, but facing facts here, atheists are amongst some of most rational, logical, open minded people.  That is why we are able to have this discussion and why I am comfortable voicing my opinion here.  Most of us here are able to look objectively at things because we have taken an empirical approach to our lives and are therefore able to approach topics such as this one in a scholarly method.  This topic would not survive on your more popular social mediums (i.e. YouTube comments, Yahoo! Answers, etc) without getting completely overpopulated with answers such as "I don't care niggars are gross and should die!" or "You degenerate racist scum, I hope you die you sick prick!"  Those are both real comments I have seen.

Quote from: "SGOS"
Quote from: "commonsense822"Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too... And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

Whatever the actual goals of the Tea Party are, you've nailed a fundamental aspect of its strategy.  At the height of Tea Party media coverage, it identified itself as the great intimidator, showing up at town meetings held my various politicians, and simply shouting them down so they couldn't speak.  They created an atmosphere of chaos.  By throwing in racial slurs, showing up to rally with guns, and magnifying their affected loss of self control, they intensified their intimidation and fear factor.  They acted like if they didn't get their way, the next step will be outright rioting and revolution by force.

Perhaps they actually have a good idea or two, or maybe they have nothing at all.  It really doesn't make any difference if they are going to act like... what's the word?  assholes?  Our current leadership are big enough assholes.  That's part of the problem.  Bigger assholes aren't going to make it better.

The Republican Party has been using the Southern Strategy for a while, the Tea Party is kind of the mutant offspring of equal parts ignorance, bigotry, and fear paired with a hyper-partisan political field (in my opinion).

Again sorry for the extreme length of this post, like I said this is a topic I have a fair interest in and am pretty passionate about.


Good post CS and thank you for taking the time to explain yourself further.  A lot of what you say makes sense.

cheers
I am currently experiencing life at several WTFs per hour.

SGOS

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Good post CS and thank you for taking the time to explain yourself further.  A lot of what you say makes sense.

 + What she said.

Sleeper

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Sleeper"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I don't doubt that some Tea Partiers are motivated by the fact that we have a black president.  I don't think it's a coincidence that it took off in early 2009.  

I also don't think that all Tea Partiers are racist yokels.
It supposedly started with Ron Paul's 2008 presidential campaign, but it has looooooong since been co-opted out of that.

Well, there's been a long strain of libertarianism in American politics.  I think the "co-opting"  is partly a matter of conservatives fleeing a Republican party that is full of shit, and partly a matter of the media focusing on the more sensational images and rhetoric of the new adherents.
Here's my point:

Sarah Palin: "I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

Michelle Bachman: "I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

Newt Gingrich: "I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

Lindsay Graham:"I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

'tea party' member 1: "I'm for Sarah Palin!"

'tea party' member 2: "I'm for Michelle Bachman!"

'tea party' member 3: "I'm for Newt Gingrich!"

'tea party' member 4: "I'm for Lindsay Graham!"

Since '08 what are all the murmurs we've been hearing from the right? "'tea party!' 'tea party!' 'tea party!'" And who was their candidate last year? Mitt Romney. Give me a fucking break. It's been co-opted by the opportunists who know when they're losing a crowd. Just like the left with the Occupiers.

My original point was at this very moment, on some conservative forum similar to this one, someone's posting a topic about an OWS protest where some people were... I don't know... sucking embryos out of women's uteri and throwing them away. There is absolutely no evidence to support it but, just like here, some of the members are amen!-ing it without question. The only difference is the color of the political shades over their eyes.
Because LaPlace still holds sway.

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Sleeper"Here's my point:

Sarah Palin: "I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

Michelle Bachman: "I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

Newt Gingrich: "I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

Lindsay Graham:"I'm a 'tea party' candidate!"

'tea party' member 1: "I'm for Sarah Palin!"

'tea party' member 2: "I'm for Michelle Bachman!"

'tea party' member 3: "I'm for Newt Gingrich!"

'tea party' member 4: "I'm for Lindsay Graham!"

Since '08 what are all the murmurs we've been hearing from the right? "'tea party!' 'tea party!' 'tea party!'" And who was their candidate last year? Mitt Romney. Give me a fucking break. It's been co-opted by the opportunists who know when they're losing a crowd. Just like the left with the Occupiers.

My original point was at this very moment, on some conservative forum similar to this one, someone's posting a topic about an OWS protest where some people were... I don't know... sucking embryos out of women's uteri and throwing them away. There is absolutely no evidence to support it but, just like here, some of the members are amen!-ing it without question. The only difference is the color of the political shades over their eyes.

Sure, there's no disagreement here with your points.  It's a general pattern in politics, too, that revolutions are subverted and folded back into the mainstream of thought, so that sooner or later it becomes what it fought against.  The Tea Party is not exempt from this general pattern.
<insert witty aphorism here>

Sleeper

Being a tad libertarian myself, I just don't like that the TP is taken seriously. It's basically the newest nickname for the Christian Right (TM). The main thing the 2 party system is good at is keeping it a 2 party system.
Because LaPlace still holds sway.

tytlyf

My main gripe with the teaparty is that they elect people based on their same 'values.'  This leads to christians getting into office and pushing the bible legislation.  The teaparty was started by Big Tabacco and the Koch Bros to protect profits.  It backfired big time.
Religion is for people who have no faith in themselves.

The Non Prophet

I hope the crazies all get lumpy balls so they have to demand universal health care for all, poetic justice is what it would be