before I weep for humanity.

Don't forget these Jmpty.

Jeeze Jason, when are you gonna stop crying over something that probably never existed outside of your own idealized imagination and accept the fact that the only thing keeping the "tea party" together now(if you could have ever called such a thing a cohesive group in any sense ) is some wispy and fleeting sense that black people shouldn't be president backed up by the American right wing political machine using it for its own diabolical plans?  Do something else for a change.

maybe they really meant "obama is my nigga"...kinda like "jesus is my nigga"....life is strange when yer a stranger.

Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Don't forget these Jmpty.

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Ah yes, the old "we're being infiltrated by leftist/union spies" because this is a Bond movie.

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"

Quote from: "buttfinger"

Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Did you even check the archives in this froum to see if that is the case or are you just one of those 'lazy people' you are talking about?

Don't need to.  The content of these current responses shows that y'all got no facts to begin with.  there is no need to read dozens of similarly unenlightened responses made in the past. This little circle-jerk you idiots have going on is enough reading to gain the necessary knowledge.

I do not understand this sort of behavior you've chosen here?  I don't understand it at all.

I believe it's a case of

We would all do well to be skeptical of hyper-partisanism, especially our own. Can't believe I have to say that here.

You're all just going to immediately jump to sweeping generalizations, huh? Just more proof that from time to time we all toss reason and level-headedness aside if it's a subject in which we're emotionally invested.

The "tea party" (I will never capitalize it or say or write it without irony or sarcasm because the real Tea Partiers were committing acts of treason against the crown and risking their own lives) are just a bunch of people who either say they want to reform government but really just want to elect Republicans, or people who actually do want to reform government but have been duped by Republicans. It's worth a laugh to be sure, but grow up - it's not motivated by racism at its core. That's a simpleton's view - you're all better than that.

They're the other though, so I guess whatever nasty things are said are not only true, but an invitation for us to insert our own unfounded nasty things. I'm a little irritated that I'm having to defend the "tea party" :roll:  to a certain extent here.

Of course I'm going to rant to the other side of this because I love playing devil's advocate so much.

Obviously there are definitely a lot of racial components that are a significant driving force behind the Tea Party.  A good majority of those associated with the Tea Party are just plainly ignorant.  But to be completely honest (and this is where I am going to draw some criticism) but I think that the left actually holds just as much responsibility as the right does when it comes to why American culture still holds some racism.

Personally I dislike the way our culture has treated offensive language, not just racial epithets but swear words and such also.  We hold double standards for a lot of our language that just seems odd.  We allow words to have a stranglehold on how we live our lives and go out of our way to avoid some words because they go against social norms.  For example I can say in public "we had sex" or "we slept together" but I can't say "we fucked" despite the fact that they all mean the same thing.  Similarly with racial epithets you are discouraged from saying the word "nigger", but somehow saying "the N-word" is socially acceptable, even though again, they mean the same thing.

In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.  Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  From that point you cannot have a rational discussion about this language.  Instead it stays under wraps, until the original ignorance brews into actual racism.

Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too don't get me wrong.  Part of their strategy mid 20th century was the Southern Strategy, in which the started appealing the white christian southerners, which has made up the majority of their base since.  And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

So there is definitely still an issue of racism in America, and I really think the only way to really fix the issue is to confront it.

Anyways, just my two cents.  Attack away.

Quote from: "commonsense822"Of course I'm going to rant to the other side of this because I love playing devil's advocate so much.

Obviously there are definitely a lot of racial components that are a significant driving force behind the Tea Party.  A good majority of those associated with the Tea Party are just plainly ignorant.  But to be completely honest (and this is where I am going to draw some criticism) but I think that the left actually holds just as much responsibility as the right does when it comes to why American culture still holds some racism.

Personally I dislike the way our culture has treated offensive language, not just racial epithets but swear words and such also.  We hold double standards for a lot of our language that just seems odd.  We allow words to have a stranglehold on how we live our lives and go out of our way to avoid some words because they go against social norms.  For example I can say in public "we had sex" or "we slept together" but I can't say "we fucked" despite the fact that they all mean the same thing.  Similarly with racial epithets you are discouraged from saying the word "nigger", but somehow saying "the N-word" is socially acceptable, even though again, they mean the same thing.

In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.  Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  From that point you cannot have a rational discussion about this language.  Instead it stays under wraps, until the original ignorance brews into actual racism.

Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too don't get me wrong.  Part of their strategy mid 20th century was the Southern Strategy, in which the started appealing the white christian southerners, which has made up the majority of their base since.  And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

So there is definitely still an issue of racism in America, and I really think the only way to really fix the issue is to confront it.

Anyways, just my two cents.  Attack away.

Could you explain a little more?  I'd like to understand where the left is going wrong in your eyes.
thanks

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"

Quote from: "commonsense822"Of course I'm going to rant to the other side of this because I love playing devil's advocate so much.

Obviously there are definitely a lot of racial components that are a significant driving force behind the Tea Party.  A good majority of those associated with the Tea Party are just plainly ignorant.  But to be completely honest (and this is where I am going to draw some criticism) but I think that the left actually holds just as much responsibility as the right does when it comes to why American culture still holds some racism.

Personally I dislike the way our culture has treated offensive language, not just racial epithets but swear words and such also.  We hold double standards for a lot of our language that just seems odd.  We allow words to have a stranglehold on how we live our lives and go out of our way to avoid some words because they go against social norms.  For example I can say in public "we had sex" or "we slept together" but I can't say "we fucked" despite the fact that they all mean the same thing.  Similarly with racial epithets you are discouraged from saying the word "nigger", but somehow saying "the N-word" is socially acceptable, even though again, they mean the same thing.

In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.  Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  From that point you cannot have a rational discussion about this language.  Instead it stays under wraps, until the original ignorance brews into actual racism.

Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too don't get me wrong.  Part of their strategy mid 20th century was the Southern Strategy, in which the started appealing the white christian southerners, which has made up the majority of their base since.  And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

So there is definitely still an issue of racism in America, and I really think the only way to really fix the issue is to confront it.

Anyways, just my two cents.  Attack away.

Could you explain a little more?  I'd like to understand where the left is going wrong in your eyes.
thanks

Look, essentially I think the left has been quick to pull the trigger on racial language.  For example I am sure that plenty of us know someone from an older generation that has some bigoted views.  And when they have kids, generally that attitude towards other races is imprinted upon those kids.  Now the parents are already set in their ways, there isn't much you are going to be able to do to change their opinions on the matter, but the kids and younger adults are where a difference can be made.  Often if someone makes a racial remark they are immediately ostracized, and called racist.  Even if the remark they made came not from racism but ignorance.

Now that being said the way our brain works is fascinating.  No one and I mean NO ONE thinks they are a morally bad person.  Your brain justifies everything you do so you can lead a psychologically fit life.  When your beliefs are attacked and you are ostracized your brain doesn't usually think "hey I might be wrong here."  It thinks of a way to justify your beliefs, to align with your moral code.  And then what happens?  They talk to other people that were put in similar situations or have the same views on race and they further enforce each others ideals and justifications.  And so what happens is the original ignorance which can be mended, turns into full fledged racism.

Quote from: "commonsense822"

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"

Quote from: "commonsense822"Of course I'm going to rant to the other side of this because I love playing devil's advocate so much.

Obviously there are definitely a lot of racial components that are a significant driving force behind the Tea Party.  A good majority of those associated with the Tea Party are just plainly ignorant.  But to be completely honest (and this is where I am going to draw some criticism) but I think that the left actually holds just as much responsibility as the right does when it comes to why American culture still holds some racism.

Personally I dislike the way our culture has treated offensive language, not just racial epithets but swear words and such also.  We hold double standards for a lot of our language that just seems odd.  We allow words to have a stranglehold on how we live our lives and go out of our way to avoid some words because they go against social norms.  For example I can say in public "we had sex" or "we slept together" but I can't say "we fucked" despite the fact that they all mean the same thing.  Similarly with racial epithets you are discouraged from saying the word "nigger", but somehow saying "the N-word" is socially acceptable, even though again, they mean the same thing.

In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.  Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  From that point you cannot have a rational discussion about this language.  Instead it stays under wraps, until the original ignorance brews into actual racism.

Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too don't get me wrong.  Part of their strategy mid 20th century was the Southern Strategy, in which the started appealing the white christian southerners, which has made up the majority of their base since.  And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

So there is definitely still an issue of racism in America, and I really think the only way to really fix the issue is to confront it.

Anyways, just my two cents.  Attack away.

Could you explain a little more?  I'd like to understand where the left is going wrong in your eyes.
thanks

Look, essentially I think the left has been quick to pull the trigger on racial language.  For example I am sure that plenty of us know someone from an older generation that has some bigoted views.  And when they have kids, generally that attitude towards other races is imprinted upon those kids.  Now the parents are already set in their ways, there isn't much you are going to be able to do to change their opinions on the matter, but the kids and younger adults are where a difference can be made.  Often if someone makes a racial remark they are immediately ostracized, and called racist.  Even if the remark they made came not from racism but ignorance.

Now that being said the way our brain works is fascinating.  No one and I mean NO ONE thinks they are a morally bad person.  Your brain justifies everything you do so you can lead a psychologically fit life.  When your beliefs are attacked and you are ostracized your brain doesn't usually think "hey I might be wrong here."  It thinks of a way to justify your beliefs, to align with your moral code.  And then what happens?  They talk to other people that were put in similar situations or have the same views on race and they further enforce each others ideals and justifications.  And so what happens is the original ignorance which can be mended, turns into full fledged racism.

Okaaay.
So the solution(s) to correcting horrid attitudes reflecting discrimination would be ___________________?
If pointing out to someone "Whoa that's racist" is only going to make them MORE racist ---
erm.......

yeah I don't know where we're headed here.

My grandparents were racists.  I found it pretty hard to swallow when i figured that out around age 9 or 10 buuut...  I happened to Know them - and I knew them for GOOD people.  Had a person of ethic persuasion dropped over in their front yard - they'd have rushed out to help in any way they could.  So - No - that really DID belong to that generation.  My mother's generation there was improvement - as there was with My generation.....   and so on.
But I'm not sure ignoring it makes it any better when it raises it's ugly fucking head (?)
And I'm not sure how that belongs to the "left" or "Liberals" (?)

the belonging to liberals part was what I was hoping you'd get to.............  that's all.

Quote from: "commonsense822"In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.

This is a dicey claim, I think.  Ignorance and bigotry are so entwined, I'm not sure there is a difference relevant to this conversation.

Quote from: "commonsense822"Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  

I don't think I agree.  This discussion is precisely about offensive language.  It doesn't become inoffensive simply because it can be explained away by bigotry.

Quote from: "commonsense822"Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too... And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

Whatever the actual goals of the Tea Party are, you've nailed a fundamental aspect of its strategy.  At the height of Tea Party media coverage, it identified itself as the great intimidator, showing up at town meetings held my various politicians, and simply shouting them down so they couldn't speak.  They created an atmosphere of chaos.  By throwing in racial slurs, showing up to rally with guns, and magnifying their affected loss of self control, they intensified their intimidation and fear factor.  They acted like if they didn't get their way, the next step will be outright rioting and revolution by force.

Perhaps they actually have a good idea or two, or maybe they have nothing at all.  It really doesn't make any difference if they are going to act like... what's the word?  assholes?  Our current leadership are big enough assholes.  That's part of the problem.  Bigger assholes aren't going to make it better.

Quote from: "commonsense822"Attack away.

Done! :D

Quote from: "SGOS"

Quote from: "commonsense822"In my opinion, the left has severely misconstrued the difference between offensive language stemmed from ignorance, and bigotry stemmed from hate.

This is a dicey claim, I think.  Ignorance and bigotry are so entwined, I'm not sure there is a difference relevant to this conversation.

Quote from: "commonsense822"Instead both have been labeled as hate speech and racist, effectively forcing the actual discussion of the offensive language underneath the floorboards.  

I don't think I agree.  This discussion is precisely about offensive language.  It doesn't become inoffensive simply because it can be explained away by bigotry.

Quote from: "commonsense822"Now the right has also put their grubby hands in the cookie jar too... And part of this strategy was to instill fear in minorities and place the blame of society's mishaps on them (i.e. crime).  This fear mongering produced an extremely solid base for the Republican Party.

Whatever the actual goals of the Tea Party are, you've nailed a fundamental aspect of its strategy.  At the height of Tea Party media coverage, it identified itself as the great intimidator, showing up at town meetings held my various politicians, and simply shouting them down so they couldn't speak.  They created an atmosphere of chaos.  By throwing in racial slurs, showing up to rally with guns, and magnifying their affected loss of self control, they intensified their intimidation and fear factor.  They acted like if they didn't get their way, the next step will be outright rioting and revolution by force.

Perhaps they actually have a good idea or two, or maybe they have nothing at all.  It really doesn't make any difference if they are going to act like... what's the word?  assholes?  Our current leadership are big enough assholes.  That's part of the problem.  Bigger assholes aren't going to make it better.

Quote from: "commonsense822"Attack away.

Done! :D

Good post SGOS.  I'm not attacking him but more trying to put these puzzle pieces together.  
Is he assuming that the farther liberal left is void of racism and if so doesn't that point to the fact that the Tea Part Right *is* more racist?  So in earnest by making that distinction he calls attention to TeaPartRight = racism without much help.  And is his call against the Liberal left as having spurred more racism by pointing it out just a little bit sideways?

So - let's put me in the Liberal left.  Done.   Am I not supposed to point at racism and say "hey that blows!"  or I'll just help it happen More if I do so?  I've made racism Worse by saying "hey that's racist"?

If it's wrong - we should ignore it and maybe it'll go away?  

Sorry I don't get it.

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"I'm not attacking him but more trying to put these puzzle pieces together.  
... Am I not supposed to point at racism and say "hey that blows!"  or I'll just help it happen More if I do so?  I've made racism Worse by saying "hey that's racist"?

If it's wrong - we should ignore it and maybe it'll go away?  

Sorry I don't get it.

And for good reason.

I'm still not sure what he was trying to say.

Quote from: "Sleeper"We would all do well to be skeptical of hyper-partisanism, especially our own. Can't believe I have to say that here.

You're all just going to immediately jump to sweeping generalizations, huh? Just more proof that from time to time we all toss reason and level-headedness aside if it's a subject in which we're emotionally invested.

The "tea party" (I will never capitalize it or say or write it without irony or sarcasm because the real Tea Partiers were committing acts of treason against the crown and risking their own lives) are just a bunch of people who either say they want to reform government but really just want to elect Republicans, or people who actually do want to reform government but have been duped by Republicans. It's worth a laugh to be sure, but grow up - it's not motivated by racism at its core. That's a simpleton's view - you're all better than that.

They're the other though, so I guess whatever nasty things are said are not only true, but an invitation for us to insert our own unfounded nasty things. I'm a little irritated that I'm having to defend the "tea party" :roll:  to a certain extent here.

I think you're an optimist and too generous with people.

One unsourced unsupported article by someone who appears to be trolling DailyKos and we now have a 7 page thread.