Sins of Child Sexual Abuse and the Gays

Started by Dreamer, February 27, 2023, 11:33:06 AM

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Dreamer


Christianity has a long history of harming others, both in theory and practice. How do Christians reconcile this past (and, indeed, the current Christian theories and practices), in the context of actually following Christ?

A simple answer is, that many Christians do not wrestle with such things. They are accepting of what they're given by those who they assume do grapple with such matters. But there are Christians who seek to embrace Christ's teachings of love and forgiveness, compassion and sacrifice, all the good things he did and called others to do likewise, aligning words with deeds.

Child sexual abuse has been a problem for a long time. It is particularly shocking, egregious when the perpetrator is in a position of power over the child. Especially so when it is a spiritual leader.

The Catholic Church has been rocked by systemic child sexual abuse. While other branches of Christianity also have cases of child sexual abusers from the ministry, they lack the depth, breadth, and systematic cover-up that the Catholic Church created (deep pockets and adherence to structures rather than actively seeking God contributed).

Why doesn't the Bible speak to this heinous violation? If it's been a problem in the Christian Church since the beginnings (because it was a problem in Jewish ministry, it was inherited and continued)?

The Bible says clearly that leaders of the Church, those with responsibilities concerning children, should not have sex with them. To do that is an abomination!

Yet these verses are twisted today by Christians to judge, mistreat, and even abuse  gay people/ homosexuals (and often anyone under the LGBTQIA+ category is also lumped in.).

We are called to condemn child sexual abuse. It is disgusting, defiling, and an utter abomination to God.

As a Christian, I am outraged that this continues. We must condemn those who harm people who are least able to protect themselves.

By accepting these twisted verses and ideas, Christians have abandoned victims of child sexual abuse. They need the peace and comfort of God deeply, and we offer them no solace. That is a horrid sin in itself.

And, yet, that is not the only sin Christians are doing here. People who are LGBTQIA+ have been continuously harmed as a result of these ideas. Physically hurt as well as spiritually, emotionally, mentally. Christians have created a narrative that being gay is the big sin. And this really screws up the message that God is love. Because, why are Christians claiming that God is love and how we should love one another, then declaring that two people loving one another is an affront to God?!

God is love. We are called to love God and to love one another. There is sin in this world, and it is important that Christians call it out. Seek out those dark corners and shine light there so evil can't continue in the shadows.

Denying human rights is a sin. Child sexual abuse is a sin.

Two adults who love each other are doing exactly what we are on this Earth to do. We are to love one another, whether male, female, straight, gay, black, white, and anything in-between. Jesus tells us how those things aren't eternal anyway-but LOVE is.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

This is the message I am called to share. True to my name, I did literally quake as I typed this... I feel called to share this with my fellow Christians-and with all child sexual abuse victims and victims of Christian gay bashing (I don't know a term for that)....

I'm so anxious and fearful about what they will say and do to me when I strengthen myself enough to say this. I want my PTSD a little more controlled before I share this beyond my own little circle -and of course I am now sharing beyond that, but with you lot of atheists and such, who are unlikely to threaten me with pitchforks and death, with your general preference for derision and memes...

<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Blackleaf

Christians (particularly Conservative Christians) often like to deflect blame onto others. They accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of doing. Heck, they don't only do it to the LGBTQ+, but they do it to each other, which REALLY doesn't help their case.

"Oh, those Catholics, always screwing around with their choir boys. That's how you know they're not true Christians. We would never do anything like that. And if we did, we'd drag them out into the streets and kick them out immediately."

"Pastor, didn't a woman accuse you of sleeping with her daughter during youth camp?"

"That's not true! And that girl was an evil seductress, sent by the devil to tempt me!"

[Later...]

"Oh, look. Another Baptist pastor caught using his position of power to sexually abuse minors. We Mormons would NEVER do that!"
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Dreamer

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 27, 2023, 11:55:08 AMChristians (particularly Conservative Christians) often like to deflect blame onto others. They accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of doing. Heck, they don't only do it to the LGBTQ+, but they do it to each other, which REALLY doesn't help their case.

"Oh, those Catholics, always screwing around with their choir boys. That's how you know they're not true Christians. We would never do anything like that. And if we did, we'd drag them out into the streets and kick them out immediately."

"Pastor, didn't a woman accuse you of sleeping with her daughter during youth camp?"

"That's not true! And that girl was an evil seductress, sent by the devil to tempt me!"

[Later...]

"Oh, look. Another Baptist pastor caught using his position of power to sexually abuse minors. We Mormons would NEVER do that!"

Yes, and I am not trying to contribute to that narrative of deflection. Christians must face these dual sins and attempt amends. None are immune.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

aitm

"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves". Numbers 31:18

Nothing says "God is Love" quite like allowing the men to take and rape little girls.....maybe that's why so many think it is okay eh?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Blackleaf

Quote from: aitm on February 27, 2023, 12:18:09 PM"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves". Numbers 31:18

Nothing says "God is Love" quite like allowing the men to take and rape little girls.....maybe that's why so many think it is okay eh?

They'd have to actually read the Bible to use that justification. Even when it's shown to them, they make excuses about how the Israelites were actually doing these girls a favor after murdering their entire families, so it doesn't really count. Of course, they try to read between the lines (ie make things up) by saying they totally didn't force themselves on these girls. I don't know about you, but nothing turns me on quite like watching my brothers, father, and mother chopped to death in front of me.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mr.Obvious

I agree with stephen fry that we should call it child rape. Sexual abuse somehow seems like downplaying the horrid crime that it is.

Look, dreamer, i imagine you are a good guy, all in all. (Relatively speaking, I don't think i am a good person, for starters. But that is a whole different conversation, and not a particularly interesting one at that.) And i can appreciate you preaching for love and understanding and opposing systemic child rape in religious orders. I can.

But i can't help but think that without validation of the concept of 'sin', and without the institution of religion, less of these transgressions in the whole would occur. Especially the gaybashing.
See, i don't think you are appaled of gaybashing and child rape because you are a christian. No more than i think another christian hates gays or thinks it is excusable to protect the church by hiding proof of child rape, because They are christian.
I believe christianity is such a broad umbrella-term that you can pick and choose to fit it to your needs. And honestly, if the bible or that umbrella term is your 'reason' to judge things as sins or as wrong, i don't see the average member of the westboro baptist church being less or more validated in their reasoning for their message of hate than you in your message of love.
Sorry.




"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Blackleaf

#7
Honestly, if the shitty Christians disappeared, I wouldn't give a crap about the other Christians. If a religious group doesn't create problems (as Republicans do), what they believe is their business. Unfortunately, the shitty Christians pretty much define the religion right now.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Dreamer

Quote from: aitm on February 27, 2023, 12:18:09 PM"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves". Numbers 31:18

Nothing says "God is Love" quite like allowing the men to take and rape little girls.....maybe that's why so many think it is okay eh?

That's not found there. The only reason virginity is referenced in that verse is because the women were sleeping with the Jewish soldiers and caused an epidemic.

Beyond that the verse does not condone or even reference rape of women or girls, the Bible is not literal. The stories inform us about spiritual truths, not only about God and God's nature but also our own.

We live in a broken world. The Bible faces ugly realities, inviting us to consider the various viewpoints of the story and ponder the implications on our own lives.

And, we're directed to interpret Scripture through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as ourselves. That is to guide us from general misinterpretations.

Christians also have Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to teach us-and to address our current condition. The problem is how easy it is to co-opt Jesus and Christianity to support whatever a person wishes. This is human nature and folly, but it does not mean that everything is open to any interpretation.

<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

aitm

Quote from: Dreamer on March 01, 2023, 11:18:13 PMThat's not found there. The only reason virginity is referenced in that verse is because the women were sleeping with the Jewish soldiers and caused an epidemic.


Typical xian, now completely making up shit to "clarify" what the babble "really meant to say". You'll make a fine preacher, lies, lies and more lies.
LOL. Pathetic.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Blackleaf

Quote from: Dreamer on March 01, 2023, 11:18:13 PMThat's not found there. The only reason virginity is referenced in that verse is because the women were sleeping with the Jewish soldiers and caused an epidemic.

Beyond that the verse does not condone or even reference rape of women or girls, the Bible is not literal. The stories inform us about spiritual truths, not only about God and God's nature but also our own.

We live in a broken world. The Bible faces ugly realities, inviting us to consider the various viewpoints of the story and ponder the implications on our own lives.

And, we're directed to interpret Scripture through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as ourselves. That is to guide us from general misinterpretations.

Christians also have Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to teach us-and to address our current condition. The problem is how easy it is to co-opt Jesus and Christianity to support whatever a person wishes. This is human nature and folly, but it does not mean that everything is open to any interpretation.

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 27, 2023, 01:09:31 PMOf course, they try to read between the lines (ie make things up) by saying they totally didn't force themselves on these girls.

You're better off just saying that the people who wrote the Bible were just ordinary people with their own biases, because you're going to have a hard time reconciling the worst parts of the Bible with your beliefs. Virgin girls were valued by these people because they were unused property to be claimed. They didn't like sharing women, unless they were prostitutes.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mike Cl

Quote from: Dreamer on March 01, 2023, 11:18:13 PMChristians also have Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to teach us-and to address our current condition. The problem is how easy it is to co-opt Jesus and Christianity to support whatever a person wishes. This is human nature and folly, but it does not mean that everything is open to any interpretation.


I agree with much of what you say about morals/ethics and the best way to treat our neighbors.  But when it comes to the bible and Jesus you lose me.  why?  Because both of those are totally human constructs.  There is no proof that any god exists and Jesus is simply a fiction.  So, you can make both of those say what you want them to say--facts not needed.  That would be like me building a defense of how I live based upon the sayings of Bugs Bunny--I can make him say whatever I need him to say. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Hydra009

Quote from: Dreamer on February 27, 2023, 11:33:06 AMChristianity has a long history of harming others, both in theory and practice. How do Christians reconcile this past (and, indeed, the current Christian theories and practices), in the context of actually following Christ?
How they reconcile it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO

Dreamer

Quote from: aitm on March 02, 2023, 09:28:34 AMTypical xian, now completely making up shit to "clarify" what the babble "really meant to say". You'll make a fine preacher, lies, lies and more lies.
LOL. Pathetic.

The Bible is contextual; I don't know why you didn't read the nearby verses, but here you go...

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord's people."
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />

Dreamer

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 02, 2023, 07:55:27 PMHow they reconcile it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
Yes, a great many do that. But that's the sinful path lined with misdeeds against our fellow humans. That is, the action is not Christian.

People know that they can use Christian language and others will often attribute good things to them. It's a wretched shorthand that leads to many wrongs.

The path is wide, the gate is narrow. Jesus knew many people would follow him in this superficial manner, veneering themselves in false piety. Jesus said, you shall know them by their fruits.
<br /><br />Individually, we are one drop.  Together, we are an ocean.<br /><br />