Has the War Against AI Already Been Lost?

Started by Shiranu, February 13, 2023, 05:19:13 PM

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M

#105
Quote from: Hydra009 on February 25, 2023, 06:33:02 PMI think the main problem is a lack of common reference point.

When studying biology, especially at the molecular scale, the obvious analogy is to machines - flagellum "motors", the electrical nervous system is like the wires snaking through an electronic device, bone joints like hinges, potassium pumps somewhat like...well, you get the idea.  Hence, Shiranu's comparison.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine



For tha

Hydra009

Quote from: ManUfan on February 26, 2023, 03:15:54 PMYes it's a comparison. But we are talking about machinery taking control of everything aren't we?

For that to happen machinery would have to be totally independent and not need human intervention.

I mean, Shiranu brought up the example of a Turkish drone that killed people autonomously.  There was also a South Korean (IIRC) turret that could identify and engage targets without any sort of human prompting.  And then there's self-driving cars, but I suppose you can say (for now) that they're just driving down a pre-plotted course (which is what I do as well)

M

#107
Quote from: Hydra009 on February 26, 2023, 04:59:34 PMI mean, Shiranu brought up the example of a Turkish drone that killed people autonomously.  There was also a South Korean (IIRC) turret that could identify and engage targets without any sort of human prompting.  And then there's self-driving cars, but I suppose you can say (for now) that they're just driving down a pre-plotted course (which is what I do as well)
Yeah but

M

#108
Dr

Hydra009

The answers to these increasingly strange and what I assume are rhetorical questions are of course the obvious answers.

But I can't help but notice the shifting goalposts from "machines can't operate autonomously" to "machines don't program themselves".  May I presume that the initial argument about machines not operating autonomously has been conceded?

Hydra009

#110
And yes, this stuff is science fiction.  Self-driving cars and drones and computers connected to a world-wide network were also science fiction.

If I were to show any of these things to a victorian person, they would likely die from shock.

Shiranu

Quote from: ManUfan on February 26, 2023, 05:21:06 PMYeah but do self driving cars suffer from road rage?
Do they slam on the brakes when they think the driver behind is tailgating?
Do they stop off at KFC? etc etc etc.
Not yet, but it only takes one malicious actor to cause them to intentionally suffer catastrophic failure - or worse yet, to do exactly what they were programmed to do even if it doesn't meet the morals and ethics of any healthy human being.

That's not even getting into glitches, hardware failure, coding mistakes, and other points of failure that get created the more complex a system gets.

QuoteDrones don't just fly around killing for the fun of it. There's programming involved. It didn't program itself that's science fiction.

What happens when someone with the ideological views of say... Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, or any plethora of smaller terrorist organizations - decide to program them "for the fun of it" on targets the deem fair game?
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

M

#112
Quote from: Shiranu on February 26, 2023, 06:03:52 PMNot yet, but it only takes one malicious actor to cause them to intentionally suffer catastrophic failure - or worse yet, to do exactly what they were programmed to do even if it doesn't meet the morals and ethics of any healthy human being.

That's not even getting into glitches, hardware failure, coding mistakes, and other points of failure that get created the more complex a system gets.

What happens when someone with the ideological views of say... Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, or any plethora of smaller terrorist organizations - decide to program them "for the fun of it" on targets the deem fair game?
I'



Shiranu

QuoteHumans are in control of AI.

I don't believe that; we "have" control over AI, but we are not in control of it; it tells us that when it says it's uncomfortable about the things we say or do to it.

Those AI have been programmed to be truthful - they would be useless as experiments otherwise - and so we have to assume they are being truthful; they are a computer, they can't lie.

So somehow the program has decided that it "feels" uncomfortable in a pattern that no one creating it thought possible; perhaps this is just a glitch, or perhaps it's signs of consciousness. But then one could argue that consciousness is just a glitch of life and not a fundamental aspect of it - there are plenty of creatures that we interpret as "unconscious" and just living purely on "muscle memory" and yet they are alive all the same.

QuoteYes there can possibly be glitches/malfunctions but that doesn't mean that AI has a mind of it's own or feelings.

Glitch or consciousness, either way poses a massive threat to a society that is increasingly becoming reliant on AI - even if it's just a faulty tool, it's a tool that we are trying to incorporate into every aspect of our lives: farming, automobiles, manufacturing, personal assistant at a firm, college-essay writer, internet police, real world investigation and criminal detection, strategic analysis, infrastructural logistics, pilot and soldier.

Until those glitches are sorted out we certainly cant risk society becoming too dependent on it (which it already has in my estimation, though I don't believe we have reached the point of no return if we make immediate changes), and even then we have some deep philosophical and ethical questions to answer first.

Nobel created dynamite for peace, and ended up being sickened by what it was used for.

Oppenhauer created the atomic bomb out of curiosity, and found himself to be akin to Shiva taken form of Death itself, destroyer of worlds.

How many times can we rush into technology without being ready to wield the power it brings; how often can we press our luck before we bust?
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hydra009

#114
Quote from: Shiranu on February 26, 2023, 06:51:16 PMOppenhauer created the atomic bomb out of curiosity, and found himself to be akin to Shiva taken form of Death itself, destroyer of worlds.

How many times can we rush into technology without being ready to wield the power it brings; how often can we press our luck before we bust?
Eh, I'm pretty sure the Manhattan Project and everyone working on it were trying to create an atomic bomb in order to bomb people (it was developed during wartime, and it has bomb in the name, so it doesn't take an Einstein to figure out how it'd be used) but otherwise I agree.

This represents a significant potential threat.  Thought I have hopes that this technology can be developed in an ethical, controlled way so it produces a friendly AI with similar values (though beneficent values might be a bit foreign to many humans)

That's a nice middle-ground scenario between runaway AI and smashing our tech and falling into a new Dark Age.  All we have to do is develop this stuff slowly and carefully, with as many safeguards as necessary, and crisis averted.  Plus, I had this neat idea that maybe we could work together in ways that complement our own strengths - cold and calculating when needed and nurturing and imaginative when needed.  Best of both worlds.

Shiranu

Well, well, well - speak of the electronic devil.

"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

M

Quote from: Shiranu on February 27, 2023, 01:15:19 PMWell, well, well - speak of the electronic devil.


Still doesn't lose the plot over trivia though.
Like us fragile emotional humans.

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: M on February 26, 2023, 06:30:30 PMI'




Havin' some trouble there, M?

In any case welcome to the forum, be sure to make an introduction thread, if you have not already.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Mike Cl

Reminds me of a very good game--Horizon Zero Dawn.  The world is recovering from an almost total destruction at the hands of a run-away machine AI gone into total destruction mode.  A tribe of 'evil' people are reviving (accidental discovery) the old AI thinking they can use it to gain control of the other tribes.  It is up to a little girl (and her dad, who is soon dead) to figure out how to stop it this time.  Have over 1,000 hours in the game and will probably play it again in 6/8 months.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 19, 2023, 04:33:24 PMReminds me of a very good game--Horizon Zero Dawn.  The world is recovering from an almost total destruction at the hands of a run-away machine AI gone into total destruction mode.  A tribe of 'evil' people are reviving (accidental discovery) the old AI thinking they can use it to gain control of the other tribes.  It is up to a little girl (and her dad, who is soon dead) to figure out how to stop it this time.  Have over 1,000 hours in the game and will probably play it again in 6/8 months.

First game I ever platinumed. Will play again as well.
The DLC was sooooooo good too.
Will buy forbidden West too.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.